khans2k5 wrote:People are making the same argument for Martin this year that other people made for Thad Young last year. How'd that work out? How many 10 year vets come in and lay an egg the first month and then just recover to their former self for the rest of the year? I feel like most of the time that just ends up being a down year that you should cut bait on and not keep banging your head against a wall saying it's just gonna start clicking again at some point.
So a dozen games into the season and you're ready to write off a vet with no history of prolonged slumps?
khans2k5 wrote:People are making the same argument for Martin this year that other people made for Thad Young last year. How'd that work out? How many 10 year vets come in and lay an egg the first month and then just recover to their former self for the rest of the year? I feel like most of the time that just ends up being a down year that you should cut bait on and not keep banging your head against a wall saying it's just gonna start clicking again at some point.
So a dozen games into the season and you're ready to write off a vet with no history of prolonged slumps?
A month into the season yes because I've seen vets do this, don't recover and end up having a down year. Martin is 32. He's on the downside of his career. It's very plausible he doesn't get back to his form of the last ten years fully. He's a scorer who always relied on 3's and getting to the basket. He can't get to the basket anymore so he settles for trying to draw fouls 20ft from the rim and he doesn't get calls. That's why his efficiency is down. He can't get around anyone anymore so all he has is contested jumpers and the occasional open shot. I don't think he'll be this bad all year, but I also don't think he magically becomes the guy he's been the last few years either because he's been getting stopped further and further from the basket and settling for runners instead of getting all the way to the rim.
SameOldNudityDrew wrote:It's the tone, and in particular the nature of the comments toward Sam in the other thread, that I think are not cool.
Hey, we haven't made the playoffs in over a decade. For most of that time frame we have been a joke of a franchise. Can you really blame anyone for getting a little worked up when we see the same stupid things happening over and over again. I guess you would prefer my posts look like this:
Wiggins RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sam for coach of the year in '16!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matt Barnes Sucks!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry, I'm not going to be a house boy. If we don't demand excellence as a fan base, chances are we probably aren't going to see it. I shudder when great fans like those on this board just go along with the company line. If we're not going to questions things, who will? Jerry Zgoda? I don't think so.
Cool, I think there are plenty of folks here and elsewhere that question Mitchell. We may not say things like "I'd like to punch him in the mouth!", but you can rest assured that the fan base has questioned him.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Most of you seem to be buying into the logic of the move. The question I ask is why? What has Martin done to suggest he deserves more time, and that the team will benefit from it? He has been flat out terrible so far this year.
Bazz gets more time and that could be a good thing, but he hasn't exactly been stellar either. The guy who needs a more substantial role is Zach, and I don't see how this accomplishes that.
Martin has played poorly this year, but he also has a 10-year track record that suggests it won't continue. And again, despite his struggles, he's no less efficient than Wiggins on offense. My guess is that he eventually breaks out of his slump. The question is what does this do to the team defense?
While I'm not necessarily on board with this move, I'm not all up in arms over it either. Zach will still get his minutes and ultimately Martin will be traded or let go.
Why do you have to keep going there? It's just a stupid, hollow argument. How about this? Let's keep Tay in the starting lineup and insert Martin over Wiggins. Since Martin is as good offensively as Wiggins and Tay gives us the defense Wiggins does nothing should change right? I just don't understand your obsession with poking holes in Andrew Wiggins.
What's the stupid, hollow argument I'm making? I just pointed out a fact. I am not at all suggesting that Wiggins should be displaced in the starting lineup as I believe we need him defensively as much if not more than we need him offensively. He's our best wing defender.
(by the way, if you think I just like to pick on the young guys, please refer to my commentary on KAT. It will make you blush).
I'm not saying you like to pick on the young guys. I'm saying you look to discredit Wiggins every chance you get. You have since the beginning of last year. For every metric you find that could somehow suggest Martin is as important to our offense as Wiggins, I'll show you 2 that don't. Finding a stat to back up your argument does not mean your argument is factual.
You have this strange obsession / agenda to be pessimistic as it pertains to Wiggins. I'm clearly not the most optimistic guy on this board, so I can understand a pessimistic viewpoint. I just don't understand it with Andrew. I get the feeling you're just waiting for Drew to fall short of expectations.
Well, that's the whole issue now isn't it? I have very high expectations of a former #1 draft pick. And while he has certainly made his fair share of individual superstar highlight-worthy plays, there are things about his game that still need a lot of improvement. Obviously he's still young and can continue to improve, but I'm disappointed in what appears to be very little improvement in his rebounding, handle, and 3-point shooting versus last year. I think defensively he's better and he was pretty decent last year, so kudos to him on that front.
KAT on the other hand is really putting up honest-to-goodness future superstar type numbers. Wiggins makes some breathtaking plays, but then you realize he needed a bunch of possessions to get his points or got out-rebounded by his matchup. Again, it's only Year 2, but I want to see even more out of the kid. I certainly don't want him to fail - that's a ridiculous assertion on your part.
Uh...Wiggins' handle is significantly better than it was last year. The idea of Wiggins being able to run any PnR last year is unfathomable and he's done it this year. Also, people harp on his efficiency when he's the only one on the starting unit who can score 20 a game consistently. People wanted KAT and Wiggins to be forced into a bigger offensive role. Well when you're the only guy who can score 20 a night because 3/4 teammates are terrible scorers of the basketball, you have to do low efficient things like try to drive and score over 3 defenders and maybe or maybe not get the call. When the starting unit moves the ball, the defense only has to worry about 2 guys doing anything with it. It's a double edged sword. You can't bitch about Wiggins efficiency and also want him and Towns to be featured on a largely incompetent offensive unit of Ricky/Wiggins/Prince/KG/Towns because Wiggins has to do everything from a perimeter scoring perspective while having no teammates who are respected on the perimeter. You can't say he and Towns need to carry a first unit of scoring bums and expect them to do it efficiently. This is the NBA, not college. You can't play incompetent lineups and expect 2 players to carry them to competency. Just look at AD and Gordon in NO.
I'll also add that Martin won't help much on this front because he's always been a shot hunter next to Wiggins instead of a ball mover. I fully expect Wiggins to take a hit offensively because we just put a black hole next to him. There's a reason why our most promising lineup is Ricky/Lavine/Wiggins/NB/Towns. There's not a selfish player of the bunch and they move the ball on offense and 4/5 can score the ball effectively. Defensively they all play hard together and play aggressive. That's the lineup we should be starting.
Towns is carrying a usage rate of 24%, yet has a TS% of 58%. He has the same issue as Wiggins - minimal other offensive threats on the floor with him and minimal floor spacing. Plus he doesn't have the benefit of taking many 3's or free throws!
My biggest concern with Wiggins is his outside shot. Hopefully he gets that part of his game turned around.
C'mon Khans - you know everything has to be explainable in black and white terms when it comes to Q. There is no room for thoughtful analysis outside of cold hard statistical data.
Oh, please Cool. May be you need to change your handle to Hothead from Coolbreeze, because you are acting like a frustrated middle-schooler.
Are we now comparing Wiggins to towns in terms of efficiency to justify whatever argument or comment we made? Come on now. Bigs are expected to have a higher fg's than guards or wings.
I've said it multiple times already. People here will always find things to discredit or rag on Wiggins. His attitude and demeanor is just not same as that of towns/rubio or kg that we gravitate towards to. It doesn't mean he isn't as competitive than them. Just a different personality. He also doesn't staff the boxscore. He is a solid defender. But he isn't a gambler that will hunt for steals. He could improve his anticipation and get stronger to grab more boards. But I'm very happy with him right now. He will only get better. Him and towns are the franchise players of the team.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Most of you seem to be buying into the logic of the move. The question I ask is why? What has Martin done to suggest he deserves more time, and that the team will benefit from it? He has been flat out terrible so far this year.
Bazz gets more time and that could be a good thing, but he hasn't exactly been stellar either. The guy who needs a more substantial role is Zach, and I don't see how this accomplishes that.
Martin has played poorly this year, but he also has a 10-year track record that suggests it won't continue. And again, despite his struggles, he's no less efficient than Wiggins on offense. My guess is that he eventually breaks out of his slump. The question is what does this do to the team defense?
While I'm not necessarily on board with this move, I'm not all up in arms over it either. Zach will still get his minutes and ultimately Martin will be traded or let go.
Why do you have to keep going there? It's just a stupid, hollow argument. How about this? Let's keep Tay in the starting lineup and insert Martin over Wiggins. Since Martin is as good offensively as Wiggins and Tay gives us the defense Wiggins does nothing should change right? I just don't understand your obsession with poking holes in Andrew Wiggins.
What's the stupid, hollow argument I'm making? I just pointed out a fact. I am not at all suggesting that Wiggins should be displaced in the starting lineup as I believe we need him defensively as much if not more than we need him offensively. He's our best wing defender.
(by the way, if you think I just like to pick on the young guys, please refer to my commentary on KAT. It will make you blush).
I'm not saying you like to pick on the young guys. I'm saying you look to discredit Wiggins every chance you get. You have since the beginning of last year. For every metric you find that could somehow suggest Martin is as important to our offense as Wiggins, I'll show you 2 that don't. Finding a stat to back up your argument does not mean your argument is factual.
You have this strange obsession / agenda to be pessimistic as it pertains to Wiggins. I'm clearly not the most optimistic guy on this board, so I can understand a pessimistic viewpoint. I just don't understand it with Andrew. I get the feeling you're just waiting for Drew to fall short of expectations.
Well, that's the whole issue now isn't it? I have very high expectations of a former #1 draft pick. And while he has certainly made his fair share of individual superstar highlight-worthy plays, there are things about his game that still need a lot of improvement. Obviously he's still young and can continue to improve, but I'm disappointed in what appears to be very little improvement in his rebounding, handle, and 3-point shooting versus last year. I think defensively he's better and he was pretty decent last year, so kudos to him on that front.
KAT on the other hand is really putting up honest-to-goodness future superstar type numbers. Wiggins makes some breathtaking plays, but then you realize he needed a bunch of possessions to get his points or got out-rebounded by his matchup. Again, it's only Year 2, but I want to see even more out of the kid. I certainly don't want him to fail - that's a ridiculous assertion on your part.
Uh...Wiggins' handle is significantly better than it was last year. The idea of Wiggins being able to run any PnR last year is unfathomable and he's done it this year. Also, people harp on his efficiency when he's the only one on the starting unit who can score 20 a game consistently. People wanted KAT and Wiggins to be forced into a bigger offensive role. Well when you're the only guy who can score 20 a night because 3/4 teammates are terrible scorers of the basketball, you have to do low efficient things like try to drive and score over 3 defenders and maybe or maybe not get the call. When the starting unit moves the ball, the defense only has to worry about 2 guys doing anything with it. It's a double edged sword. You can't bitch about Wiggins efficiency and also want him and Towns to be featured on a largely incompetent offensive unit of Ricky/Wiggins/Prince/KG/Towns because Wiggins has to do everything from a perimeter scoring perspective while having no teammates who are respected on the perimeter. You can't say he and Towns need to carry a first unit of scoring bums and expect them to do it efficiently. This is the NBA, not college. You can't play incompetent lineups and expect 2 players to carry them to competency. Just look at AD and Gordon in NO.
I'll also add that Martin won't help much on this front because he's always been a shot hunter next to Wiggins instead of a ball mover. I fully expect Wiggins to take a hit offensively because we just put a black hole next to him. There's a reason why our most promising lineup is Ricky/Lavine/Wiggins/NB/Towns. There's not a selfish player of the bunch and they move the ball on offense and 4/5 can score the ball effectively. Defensively they all play hard together and play aggressive. That's the lineup we should be starting.
Towns is carrying a usage rate of 24%, yet has a TS% of 58%. He has the same issue as Wiggins - minimal other offensive threats on the floor with him and minimal floor spacing. Plus he doesn't have the benefit of taking many 3's or free throws!
My biggest concern with Wiggins is his outside shot. Hopefully he gets that part of his game turned around.
Towns isn't a perimeter player who we have driving into the lane into the teeth of the defense to try to draw fouls. He gets to post up and hit open mid-range jumpers. That's why big men typically have high shooting percentages and that's why TS% was invented to weigh 3pt shooting and FT shooting to give perimeter guys a chance to compete with big men. Wiggins' perimeter shot isn't there making his life even more difficult as a perimeter guy trying to score. Towns has been pretty well protected offensively from a responsibility standpoint. We haven't run nearly as much through him as Wiggins which is perfectly fine. I'd rather Towns play really well and let Wiggins try to carry the load as a sophomore and we can expand Towns' role as we go along.
worldK wrote:Are we now comparing Wiggins to towns in terms of efficiency to justify whatever argument or comment we made? Come on now. Bigs are expected to have a higher fg's than guards or wings.
I've said it multiple times already. People here will always find things to discredit or rag on Wiggins. His attitude and demeanor is just not same as that of towns/rubio or kg that we gravitate towards to. It doesn't mean he isn't as competitive than them. Just a different personality. He also doesn't staff the boxscore. He is a solid defender. But he isn't a gambler that will hunt for steals. He could improve his anticipation and get stronger to grab more boards. But I'm very happy with him right now. He will only get better. Him and towns are the franchise players of the team.
WorldK, it's true that bigs typically carry a higher FG% than perimeter players, but I'm talking about TS%, which looks at overall shooting efficiency, including free throws and 3pointers. If you look at the 32 players in the league averaging 18+ points per game, you will see the top 10 guys in TS% is littered with perimeter-oriented players that can knock down the 3-ball.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Most of you seem to be buying into the logic of the move. The question I ask is why? What has Martin done to suggest he deserves more time, and that the team will benefit from it? He has been flat out terrible so far this year.
Bazz gets more time and that could be a good thing, but he hasn't exactly been stellar either. The guy who needs a more substantial role is Zach, and I don't see how this accomplishes that.
Martin has played poorly this year, but he also has a 10-year track record that suggests it won't continue. And again, despite his struggles, he's no less efficient than Wiggins on offense. My guess is that he eventually breaks out of his slump. The question is what does this do to the team defense?
While I'm not necessarily on board with this move, I'm not all up in arms over it either. Zach will still get his minutes and ultimately Martin will be traded or let go.
Why do you have to keep going there? It's just a stupid, hollow argument. How about this? Let's keep Tay in the starting lineup and insert Martin over Wiggins. Since Martin is as good offensively as Wiggins and Tay gives us the defense Wiggins does nothing should change right? I just don't understand your obsession with poking holes in Andrew Wiggins.
What's the stupid, hollow argument I'm making? I just pointed out a fact. I am not at all suggesting that Wiggins should be displaced in the starting lineup as I believe we need him defensively as much if not more than we need him offensively. He's our best wing defender.
(by the way, if you think I just like to pick on the young guys, please refer to my commentary on KAT. It will make you blush).
I'm not saying you like to pick on the young guys. I'm saying you look to discredit Wiggins every chance you get. You have since the beginning of last year. For every metric you find that could somehow suggest Martin is as important to our offense as Wiggins, I'll show you 2 that don't. Finding a stat to back up your argument does not mean your argument is factual.
You have this strange obsession / agenda to be pessimistic as it pertains to Wiggins. I'm clearly not the most optimistic guy on this board, so I can understand a pessimistic viewpoint. I just don't understand it with Andrew. I get the feeling you're just waiting for Drew to fall short of expectations.
Well, that's the whole issue now isn't it? I have very high expectations of a former #1 draft pick. And while he has certainly made his fair share of individual superstar highlight-worthy plays, there are things about his game that still need a lot of improvement. Obviously he's still young and can continue to improve, but I'm disappointed in what appears to be very little improvement in his rebounding, handle, and 3-point shooting versus last year. I think defensively he's better and he was pretty decent last year, so kudos to him on that front.
KAT on the other hand is really putting up honest-to-goodness future superstar type numbers. Wiggins makes some breathtaking plays, but then you realize he needed a bunch of possessions to get his points or got out-rebounded by his matchup. Again, it's only Year 2, but I want to see even more out of the kid. I certainly don't want him to fail - that's a ridiculous assertion on your part.
Uh...Wiggins' handle is significantly better than it was last year. The idea of Wiggins being able to run any PnR last year is unfathomable and he's done it this year. Also, people harp on his efficiency when he's the only one on the starting unit who can score 20 a game consistently. People wanted KAT and Wiggins to be forced into a bigger offensive role. Well when you're the only guy who can score 20 a night because 3/4 teammates are terrible scorers of the basketball, you have to do low efficient things like try to drive and score over 3 defenders and maybe or maybe not get the call. When the starting unit moves the ball, the defense only has to worry about 2 guys doing anything with it. It's a double edged sword. You can't bitch about Wiggins efficiency and also want him and Towns to be featured on a largely incompetent offensive unit of Ricky/Wiggins/Prince/KG/Towns because Wiggins has to do everything from a perimeter scoring perspective while having no teammates who are respected on the perimeter. You can't say he and Towns need to carry a first unit of scoring bums and expect them to do it efficiently. This is the NBA, not college. You can't play incompetent lineups and expect 2 players to carry them to competency. Just look at AD and Gordon in NO.
I'll also add that Martin won't help much on this front because he's always been a shot hunter next to Wiggins instead of a ball mover. I fully expect Wiggins to take a hit offensively because we just put a black hole next to him. There's a reason why our most promising lineup is Ricky/Lavine/Wiggins/NB/Towns. There's not a selfish player of the bunch and they move the ball on offense and 4/5 can score the ball effectively. Defensively they all play hard together and play aggressive. That's the lineup we should be starting.
Towns is carrying a usage rate of 24%, yet has a TS% of 58%. He has the same issue as Wiggins - minimal other offensive threats on the floor with him and minimal floor spacing. Plus he doesn't have the benefit of taking many 3's or free throws!
My biggest concern with Wiggins is his outside shot. Hopefully he gets that part of his game turned around.
Towns isn't a perimeter player who we have driving into the lane into the teeth of the defense to try to draw fouls. He gets to post up and hit open mid-range jumpers. That's why big men typically have high shooting percentages and that's why TS% was invented to weigh 3pt shooting and FT shooting to give perimeter guys a chance to compete with big men. Wiggins' perimeter shot isn't there making his life even more difficult as a perimeter guy trying to score. Towns has been pretty well protected offensively from a responsibility standpoint. We haven't run nearly as much through him as Wiggins which is perfectly fine. I'd rather Towns play really well and let Wiggins try to carry the load as a sophomore and we can expand Towns' role as we go along.
Yes, exactly. Wiggins' outside shot isn't there, making his life even more difficult. He has to work his ass off to get points. My point is I'd love to see his outside shot improve, so we agree. If he ever gets a reliable 3-ball in volume, he'll be golden.
I think what got cool rile up about q's post is him trying to say that wig and martin has similar efficiency or something based on some stats.
Cool got upset because anyone who knows basketball and watch the games can tell that wig is a much better player than martin period. The stats being brought up can be look at as misleading and conditioning to those who don't watch the actual games.
I'm used to this from Q as he has always been hard on wig and seems to have a soft spot for martin in that you rarely see him take a swipe at martin(who deserve it so far).
I'm not taking it againts q. We all have our favorites and wig is just not the the stats loving q's type of guy.
