Q12543 wrote: What I have said a bunch of times is that I don't like Dieng's fit on this team because of his defensive deficiencies. I haven't said he's a terrible overall player. I haven't said lets trade him for peanuts. I haven't said he's the worst player in the world, so don't exaggerate a narrative by me that doesn't exist. I absolutely have recognized the strides he's made offensively. But I don't think that's what we need from our backup Center.
I don't think I'm exaggerating your narrative. You've been making consistent, negative posts on Dieng for well over a year now. There really isn't any balance to your analysis IMO. It's more just picking apart one aspect of his game while continuing to ignore his positive contributions. To say Dieng doesn't fit this team is a good example of that. He led the team in Win Shares last year as one of the lowest paid players. Good production at a low price is a good fit on any team. Here's a nice summary of him after last year which encompasses a more balanced view than your single aspect commentary:
Part of Dieng's problems this year is his selfish play on offense. His assist rate has dropped from 16.4 to 4.8. That's awful. That's worse than Bazz. His rebound rate has dropped every year. Meanwhile his scoring has stayed almost the same per 36 every year (less than a point difference between the low and high). He needs to get back to moving the ball and focusing on rebounding and staying grounded defensively. More of his offense needs to come from offensive boards and less from midrange jumpshots. His FG% by distance is dropping from 52% to 40% to now just 33% from 0-3 ft. Meanwhile his attempts from 16+ ft have gone from 1% to 13% to 26% this year. He's shooting 79% from 0-3ft and 40% from 16+ ft which is decent from that far, but clearly he needs to put up more shots at the rim. He's shooting sub 30% from 3-16 ft. He's got to get better looks on offense or move the ball better. If he doesn't improve by the time Pek gets back I'd rather Payne stay as the backup PF on nights KG doesn't play over Dieng because Payne has played well so far this year and he stretches the floor better for Pek. Dieng has to simplify his game and get back to his rookie play style if he wants to stay in the rotation. Right now he's playing pretty selfishly on offense compared to past years which is too bad because he was looking like a pretty good passer for a big man in the high post.
khans2k5 wrote:Part of Dieng's problems this year is his selfish play on offense. His assist rate has dropped from 16.4 to 4.8. That's awful. That's worse than Bazz. His rebound rate has dropped every year. Meanwhile his scoring has stayed almost the same per 36 every year (less than a point difference between the low and high). He needs to get back to moving the ball and focusing on rebounding and staying grounded defensively. More of his offense needs to come from offensive boards and less from midrange jumpshots. His FG% by distance is dropping from 52% to 40% to now just 33% from 0-3 ft. Meanwhile his attempts from 16+ ft have gone from 1% to 13% to 26% this year. He's shooting 79% from 0-3ft and 40% from 16+ ft which is decent from that far, but clearly he needs to put up more shots at the rim. He's shooting sub 30% from 3-16 ft. He's got to get better looks on offense or move the ball better. If he doesn't improve by the time Pek gets back I'd rather Payne stay as the backup PF on nights KG doesn't play over Dieng because Payne has played well so far this year and he stretches the floor better for Pek. Dieng has to simplify his game and get back to his rookie play style if he wants to stay in the rotation. Right now he's playing pretty selfishly on offense compared to past years which is too bad because he was looking like a pretty good passer for a big man in the high post.
While it's true Dieng's assists have dipped so far this year - it's only a 12 game sample. Last year he was quite good in that area. If we use all data, his career assist % is 9.2. Compare that to Pek's career which is 5.0%. Towns is 5.6% so far. I'm not really concerned in this area because the larger sample tells me he's a decent passer. I don't see him playing selfishly myself. In fact - my eyes see the opposite. I think he needs to be more aggressive. The stats show he only averages 5 shots a game for his career - so he's far from a chucker.
The one odd thing I've noticed (which you allude to) is he's playing away from the rim more. I see that both on offense and defense. I don't know if that's him or by design. But watching the games (especially this year) he's coming way out to guard people. That leads to him getting beat off the dribble and certainly affects his defensive positioning with regard to rebounding as he's back peddling. It would be a good question for Sam I guess. Perhaps they are tinkering with him as a PF vs. a Center. But a lot of times I see him out at the top and Bjelica under the rim on defense. It's still early - but so far I don't like him out too far because he does seem a little clumsy/out of control in space.
Off topic, but the low assist rate for Towns that Carlos cites is another area that I think this team is going to improve in as the season progresses. KAT is a terrific passer (Gorgui ain't bad either) and as teams start to double him more like they did in Vegas, he is going to burn them and give teammates layups. I think his low assist rate so far has a lot to do with not yet seeing as many double teams as he will soon command.
khans2k5 wrote:Part of Dieng's problems this year is his selfish play on offense. His assist rate has dropped from 16.4 to 4.8. That's awful. That's worse than Bazz. .
That's saying something. I can't believe he got credit for that "alley oop" in Miami. Everybody who's ever seen Muhammad play knew that was an errant shot and he had no intention of passing. But I was at home thinking at the time... they're gonna give him an assist for that like he's Draymond Green or something.
khans2k5 wrote:Part of Dieng's problems this year is his selfish play on offense. His assist rate has dropped from 16.4 to 4.8. That's awful. That's worse than Bazz. His rebound rate has dropped every year. Meanwhile his scoring has stayed almost the same per 36 every year (less than a point difference between the low and high). He needs to get back to moving the ball and focusing on rebounding and staying grounded defensively. More of his offense needs to come from offensive boards and less from midrange jumpshots. His FG% by distance is dropping from 52% to 40% to now just 33% from 0-3 ft. Meanwhile his attempts from 16+ ft have gone from 1% to 13% to 26% this year. He's shooting 79% from 0-3ft and 40% from 16+ ft which is decent from that far, but clearly he needs to put up more shots at the rim. He's shooting sub 30% from 3-16 ft. He's got to get better looks on offense or move the ball better. If he doesn't improve by the time Pek gets back I'd rather Payne stay as the backup PF on nights KG doesn't play over Dieng because Payne has played well so far this year and he stretches the floor better for Pek. Dieng has to simplify his game and get back to his rookie play style if he wants to stay in the rotation. Right now he's playing pretty selfishly on offense compared to past years which is too bad because he was looking like a pretty good passer for a big man in the high post.
While it's true Dieng's assists have dipped so far this year - it's only a 12 game sample. Last year he was quite good in that area. If we use all data, his career assist % is 9.2. Compare that to Pek's career which is 5.0%. Towns is 5.6% so far. I'm not really concerned in this area because the larger sample tells me he's a decent passer. I don't see him playing selfishly myself. In fact - my eyes see the opposite. I think he needs to be more aggressive. The stats show he only averages 5 shots a game for his career - so he's far from a chucker.
The one odd thing I've noticed (which you allude to) is he's playing away from the rim more. I see that both on offense and defense. I don't know if that's him or by design. But watching the games (especially this year) he's coming way out to guard people. That leads to him getting beat off the dribble and certainly affects his defensive positioning with regard to rebounding as he's back peddling. It would be a good question for Sam I guess. Perhaps they are tinkering with him as a PF vs. a Center. But a lot of times I see him out at the top and Bjelica under the rim on defense. It's still early - but so far I don't like him out too far because he does seem a little clumsy/out of control in space.
There's no more room for people to be offensively aggressive on the second unit. There's only 1 ball. Every game I've watched has had Zach and Belly trying to move the ball and Dieng, Bazz and Martin shooting like they expect to get pulled or not get the ball again so they have to get shots up like bandits. Those three guys have been playing some selfish basketball. Look at their assist numbers. The trio of them average 2.4 APG's and 22.5 shots per game. Compare that to Zach and NB's 6 APG's and 17.1 shots per game. We don't need more aggression out of Dieng offensively. We need more guys who move the ball and move around the ball so he gets more looks around the basket and finds guys for easy looks around the basket.
khans2k5 wrote:
There's no more room for people to be offensively aggressive on the second unit. There's only 1 ball. Every game I've watched has had Zach and Belly trying to move the ball and Dieng, Bazz and Martin shooting like they expect to get pulled or not get the ball again so they have to get shots up like bandits. Those three guys have been playing some selfish basketball. Look at their assist numbers. The trio of them average 2.4 APG's and 22.5 shots per game. Compare that to Zach and NB's 6 APG's and 17.1 shots per game. We don't need more aggression out of Dieng offensively. We need more guys who move the ball and move around the ball so he gets more looks around the basket and finds guys for easy looks around the basket.
Dieng is currently averaging 10.2 shot attempts on a per 36 basis. That's 10th on the team. He's not shooting too much. He's 5th in FG%. Or 3rd if you throw out small samples of Rudez/Miller. I would have no problem with him taking a couple more shots/game assuming he maintains his efficiency. As far as the "only one ball" theory, I'd argue that Martin is a far greater concern than Dieng right now. Martin is 3rd on the team with 15.4 shots per 36 and he's near the bottom in FG%.
Regarding assists - again, look at a bigger sample than 12 games to gain a better perspective of his facilitating. He's off to a slow start in that area. But the larger body of work shows it shouldn't be a concern.
khans2k5 wrote:
There's no more room for people to be offensively aggressive on the second unit. There's only 1 ball. Every game I've watched has had Zach and Belly trying to move the ball and Dieng, Bazz and Martin shooting like they expect to get pulled or not get the ball again so they have to get shots up like bandits. Those three guys have been playing some selfish basketball. Look at their assist numbers. The trio of them average 2.4 APG's and 22.5 shots per game. Compare that to Zach and NB's 6 APG's and 17.1 shots per game. We don't need more aggression out of Dieng offensively. We need more guys who move the ball and move around the ball so he gets more looks around the basket and finds guys for easy looks around the basket.
Dieng is currently averaging 10.2 shot attempts on a per 36 basis. That's 10th on the team. He's not shooting too much. He's 5th in FG%. Or 3rd if you throw out small samples of Rudez/Miller. I would have no problem with him taking a couple more shots/game assuming he maintains his efficiency. As far as the "only one ball" theory, I'd argue that Martin is a far greater concern than Dieng right now. Martin is 3rd on the team with 15.4 shots per 36 and he's near the bottom in FG%.
Regarding assists - again, look at a bigger sample than 12 games to gain a better perspective of his facilitating. He's off to a slow start in that area. But the larger body of work shows it shouldn't be a concern.
That career 9% assist rate was 13% before this year. A drop from 16 to 4 percent is massive and he's in the most potent offensive lineup he's ever been a part of. I'm not giving him credit for what he's done when he's shown in other areas of his game that his regression didn't get better. He's the 5th option on the second unit and he's taking 1 less shot per game than Bazz and 0.5 shots less than Belly. Both of whom are getting more out of their shots (higher points per shot) than Dieng. And even with Martin's shooting struggles, he's still got a higher point per shot than Dieng because he gets to the line. KG and Prince are the only two guys in the ten man rotation who provide less value per shot so Dieng really shouldn't be getting more shooting opportunities on offense unless he creates them on offensive rebounds or better play off the ball to get open around the rim. At the end of the day you aren't supposed to walk into year 3 and show signs of regression almost everywhere.
khans2k5 wrote:
That career 9% assist rate was 13% before this year. A drop from 16 to 4 percent is massive and he's in the most potent offensive lineup he's ever been a part of. I'm not giving him credit for what he's done when he's shown in other areas of his game that his regression didn't get better. He's the 5th option on the second unit and he's taking 1 less shot per game than Bazz and 0.5 shots less than Belly. Both of whom are getting more out of their shots (higher points per shot) than Dieng. And even with Martin's shooting struggles, he's still got a higher point per shot than Dieng because he gets to the line. KG and Prince are the only two guys in the ten man rotation who provide less value per shot so Dieng really shouldn't be getting more shooting opportunities on offense unless he creates them on offensive rebounds or better play off the ball to get open around the rim. At the end of the day you aren't supposed to walk into year 3 and show signs of regression almost everywhere.
My experience tells me that 12 games is a little too early to start tossing out "regression". We had a very well known example of people using small sample size last year in an attempt to label a player. You can do what you want. But I'll wait for more data than 12 games myself. Last year his PER, Win Shares and VORP all went up from his rookie year which are the key metrics I use most frequently.
Regarding points per shot. Dieng is getting 1.2. Throw out Rudez (small sample) and he's tied for 3rd best on the team. And that's him playing poorly as some have pointed out. His shooting is not a problem. There is nothing you've been able to point to that's supports that. In fact, most data is showing the opposite. Throw out Rudez and Miller (sample size) and Dieng is 6th on the team in True Shooting % (better than both Martin and Wiggins). And again that's him playing "bad". His larger body of work indicates most of his numbers will improve this year with more data. Dieng has always posted solid efficiency numbers. Last year he was one of the team leaders in TS%. I'll put my money on the larger sample vs. these first 12 games.
