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Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:20 pm
by Camden [enjin:6601484]
Barnes was a preseason All-American as a freshman at UNC. Had he declared after that year, he would have been top-three. Believe he was consensus top player out of HS too. Barnes had big time hype on him that you're either overlooking or forgetting. He decided to return to school and that sophomore year, his game got picked apart and he fell out of the top-5. Perhaps the same would have happened to Wiggins had he stayed at Kansas. He was smart, though, and declared.
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:22 pm
by thedoper
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
I think you missed my point. And sarcasm.
I did miss it. My point was more that Wes has no business in any conversation about real shooting talent. It makes me want to vomit that I was ever pulling for him or making excuses for him.
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:23 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
thedoper wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:thedoper wrote:I just don't get what is underwhelming about a rookie who everyone new needed work on his offensive game having ups and downs. One of the areas he was criticized on was his jump shot. Well regardless of sample size you don't shoot 40% from three in the NBA with a bad jumper. His decision making over the last five games was bad, but that stretch included getting very sick and recovering from that. To me his performance should be considered exactly what we expected, regardless of where he was picked. There are a lot of rookies with talent in this class but when the top 10 are all one and done players from now until forever, this is what you get out of 90% of the top tier draft picks in their rookie years. Very few have bucked the trend since the draft has trended toward youth and potential.
But that's the point. How many transcendent players started off in that 90% group?
The Wolves traded for Wiggins to be more than an average rookie... or even at the top end of that 90%. For the team to finally make the playoffs, or even get to .500 for the first time in 10+ years, Wiggins has to be a good player.
John Wall
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Durant
Recent #1 or #2 draft picks. They produced out of the gate and you knew instantly that they were destined for bigger and better things. That's not to say Wiggins can't do it too. But he's shown more similarities to Darius Miles at this point.
We're all hoping he's just a bit rawer than most and that brighter days are ahead.
Wiggins has also shown similarities to Kobe and TMac as 19 year olds.
Durant and Irving were more polished players, everyone agreed on that during their college careers. In contrast everyone agreed that Wiggins was not as polished. He has been a more than average rookie, but he has not been at Durant and Irving's level. As for the rest:
John Wall was 20.
Rose was 20.
Blake Griffen was 21.
So if this is a thread about whether or not Wiggins deserved the #1 pick then there are still questions. But when did you want the team to get to .500? Didn't happen for Durant, Griffen, Iving or Wall. Rose got his team to 500 exactly as a rookie.
I think there's a miscommunication about the .500 blurb. I wasn't expecting .500 this season. I pegged them for 55 losses, which I also said might be too optimistic. I'm talking about reaching .500 multiple seasons from now.
I'm not seeing any similarities between Kobe Bryant and Andrew Wiggins at age 19 by the way.
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:30 pm
by mjs34
AbeVigodaLive wrote:thedoper wrote:I just don't get what is underwhelming about a rookie who everyone new needed work on his offensive game having ups and downs. One of the areas he was criticized on was his jump shot. Well regardless of sample size you don't shoot 40% from three in the NBA with a bad jumper. His decision making over the last five games was bad, but that stretch included getting very sick and recovering from that. To me his performance should be considered exactly what we expected, regardless of where he was picked. There are a lot of rookies with talent in this class but when the top 10 are all one and done players from now until forever, this is what you get out of 90% of the top tier draft picks in their rookie years. Very few have bucked the trend since the draft has trended toward youth and potential.
But that's the point. How many transcendent players started off in that 90% group?
The Wolves traded for Wiggins to be more than an average rookie... or even at the top end of that 90%. For the team to finally make the playoffs, or even get to .500 for the first time in 10+ years, Wiggins has to be a good player.
John Wall
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Durant
Recent #1 or #2 draft picks. They produced out of the gate and you knew instantly that they were destined for bigger and better things.
That's not to say Wiggins can't do it too. But he's shown more similarities to Darius Miles at this point.
We're all hoping he's just a bit rawer than most and that brighter days are ahead.
Actually that's not exactly correct Abe
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3202/year/2008/kevin-durant
I didn't bother to go past Durant, but I'm guessing you would see similar percentages other than for Blake since he actually didn't play a game his first season, and then pretty much only took layups and dunks, but Durant is probably the closest comparison size wise.
Darius Miles!!!! Seriously!!!
Cam, I am pretty sure that Barnes had actually fallen to 5 or lower before he decided to stay at UNC for his second year.
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:33 pm
by thedoper
Camden wrote:Barnes was a preseason All-American as a freshman at UNC. Had he declared after that year, he would have been top-three. Believe he was consensus top player out of HS too. Barnes had big time hype on him that you're either overlooking or forgetting. He decided to return to school and that sophomore year, his game got picked apart and he fell out of the top-5. Perhaps the same would have happened to Wiggins had he stayed at Kansas. He was smart, though, and declared.
I know all of this, and that hype was gone by the time draft day came. Barnes is now looking to be a good to potentially great player which is pretty much ideal for a 7th pick in this era.
Is your point that at what we are projecting someone's talent matters? If so that is an easy point to agree with. I didn't live up to the hype my Parents had for me as a 2 year old. Wiggins is exactly where I expected him to be as a 19 year old with the added bonus of shooting better from 3. Especially in light of having pgs that may not be able to help coach him on the court as to where he needs to be. If you think he never deserved to be a number 1 pick that is fine. But because of you saw the deficiencies in his game beforehand you should be even less disappointed in his play at this point.
There is a lot of season to go and a lot more ups and downs to be expected from Wiggins. Wiggins at 20 next year should be the real opportunity to see if he has the ability to take a good foundation and make the leap to becoming a great player.
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:39 pm
by mjs34
AbeVigodaLive wrote:thedoper wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:thedoper wrote:I just don't get what is underwhelming about a rookie who everyone new needed work on his offensive game having ups and downs. One of the areas he was criticized on was his jump shot. Well regardless of sample size you don't shoot 40% from three in the NBA with a bad jumper. His decision making over the last five games was bad, but that stretch included getting very sick and recovering from that. To me his performance should be considered exactly what we expected, regardless of where he was picked. There are a lot of rookies with talent in this class but when the top 10 are all one and done players from now until forever, this is what you get out of 90% of the top tier draft picks in their rookie years. Very few have bucked the trend since the draft has trended toward youth and potential.
But that's the point. How many transcendent players started off in that 90% group?
The Wolves traded for Wiggins to be more than an average rookie... or even at the top end of that 90%. For the team to finally make the playoffs, or even get to .500 for the first time in 10+ years, Wiggins has to be a good player.
John Wall
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Durant
Recent #1 or #2 draft picks. They produced out of the gate and you knew instantly that they were destined for bigger and better things. That's not to say Wiggins can't do it too. But he's shown more similarities to Darius Miles at this point.
We're all hoping he's just a bit rawer than most and that brighter days are ahead.
Wiggins has also shown similarities to Kobe and TMac as 19 year olds.
Durant and Irving were more polished players, everyone agreed on that during their college careers. In contrast everyone agreed that Wiggins was not as polished. He has been a more than average rookie, but he has not been at Durant and Irving's level. As for the rest:
John Wall was 20.
Rose was 20.
Blake Griffen was 21.
So if this is a thread about whether or not Wiggins deserved the #1 pick then there are still questions. But when did you want the team to get to .500? Didn't happen for Durant, Griffen, Iving or Wall. Rose got his team to 500 exactly as a rookie.
I think there's a miscommunication about the .500 blurb. I wasn't expecting .500 this season. I pegged them for 55 losses, which I also said might be too optimistic. I'm talking about reaching .500 multiple seasons from now.
I'm not seeing any similarities between Kobe Bryant and Andrew Wiggins at age 19 by the way.
Actually 20 games in to his second season, Kobe's percentages looked worse
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/110/year/1998/kobe-bryant
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:41 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
sjm34 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:thedoper wrote:I just don't get what is underwhelming about a rookie who everyone new needed work on his offensive game having ups and downs. One of the areas he was criticized on was his jump shot. Well regardless of sample size you don't shoot 40% from three in the NBA with a bad jumper. His decision making over the last five games was bad, but that stretch included getting very sick and recovering from that. To me his performance should be considered exactly what we expected, regardless of where he was picked. There are a lot of rookies with talent in this class but when the top 10 are all one and done players from now until forever, this is what you get out of 90% of the top tier draft picks in their rookie years. Very few have bucked the trend since the draft has trended toward youth and potential.
But that's the point. How many transcendent players started off in that 90% group?
The Wolves traded for Wiggins to be more than an average rookie... or even at the top end of that 90%. For the team to finally make the playoffs, or even get to .500 for the first time in 10+ years, Wiggins has to be a good player.
John Wall
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Durant
Recent #1 or #2 draft picks. They produced out of the gate and you knew instantly that they were destined for bigger and better things.
That's not to say Wiggins can't do it too. But he's shown more similarities to Darius Miles at this point.
We're all hoping he's just a bit rawer than most and that brighter days are ahead.
Actually that's not exactly correct Abe
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3202/year/2008/kevin-durant
I didn't bother to go past Durant, but I'm guessing you would see similar percentages other than for Blake since he actually didn't play a game his first season, and then pretty much only took layups and dunks, but Durant is probably the closest comparison size wise.
Darius Miles!!!! Seriously!!!
Cam, I am pretty sure that Barnes had actually fallen to 5 or lower before he decided to stay at UNC for his second year.
Wait. What?
Durant *was averaging 21 ppg his first month of the season. That's almost 2x more and with better percentages than Wiggins is putting up.
Wall was a 16/8 guy. I don't care if Blake Griffin only dunked off Deeandre Jordan's back as long as he was making an impact. Rose was a 17/6 guy with decent efficiency. Irving was 19 and 5.
Each guy looked the part immediately. *even though I was less than impressed with 1st year Durant. He seemed to have some bad habits... but he sure proved to overcome them... and then some.
As for Darius Miles... He averaged 10 ppg / 6 reb / / 1.6 blk / 53% fg in the month of December his rookie season. Again... we're talking production here... which group are Wiggins' statlines more similar to...?
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:43 pm
by AbeVigodaLive
sjm34 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:thedoper wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:thedoper wrote:.
Wiggins has also shown similarities to Kobe and TMac as 19 year olds.
I'm not seeing any similarities between Kobe Bryant and Andrew Wiggins at age 19 by the way.
Actually 20 games in to his second season, Kobe's percentages looked worse
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/110/year/1998/kobe-bryant
What? No. Look again.
Are you certain you're not looking at his 20 games in the playoffs?
Bryant averaged 15 ppg the first month of the season. And 20 ppg in December.
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:46 pm
by bleedspeed
Top 25 under 25 - Wolves
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12007026/anthony-davis-no-1-top-25-players-age-25-nba
18. Andrew Wiggins | Age: 19 | Timberwolves
Projected 3-year WARP: Minus-4.0
Pelton: As promising as Wiggins is, he's been ineffective as a pro, making just 38.5 percent of his 2-point attempts with an assist-to-turnover ratio barely better than 1-to-2. As a result, his minus-1.4 WARP is the league's worst total.
Thorpe: Wiggins already is showing the signs of being the best perimeter defender in the league, and perhaps the best shooting athlete (as a rookie) in generations. He's far from being skilled enough with his dribble to dominate games, though he will post up wings effectively, rare for a teenager.
Elhassan: A lot of the gripe people have with Wiggins is actually tied to his lack of skill level. He doesn't settle for midrange jumpers because he's misguided; rather, it's because he doesn't possess the skill level to get to where he can be more efficient.
24. Ricky Rubio | Age: 24 | Timberwolves
Projected 3-year WARP: 25.9
Pelton: Before going down with a badly sprained ankle, Rubio was averaging a career-high 12.5 assists per 36 minutes, up from 9.6 a season ago. Flip Saunders' offense should give Rubio more opportunities with the ball in his hands.
Thorpe: It looked like this season was finally going to be his breakout campaign, as he looked to be in command of his team before going down with an injury. At the very least he is a dynamic passer and someone who disrupts offenses with his defensive skills.
Elhassan: Let Rubio exist as a cautionary tale of unfulfilled potential. That said, he's still just 24, one of the best passers in the NBA and a very good defender. He might never reach his projected ceiling, but he's still a fine option at point guard.
Re: The dumb and stupid Wiggins thread
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:49 pm
by mjs34
AbeVigodaLive wrote:sjm34 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:thedoper wrote:I just don't get what is underwhelming about a rookie who everyone new needed work on his offensive game having ups and downs. One of the areas he was criticized on was his jump shot. Well regardless of sample size you don't shoot 40% from three in the NBA with a bad jumper. His decision making over the last five games was bad, but that stretch included getting very sick and recovering from that. To me his performance should be considered exactly what we expected, regardless of where he was picked. There are a lot of rookies with talent in this class but when the top 10 are all one and done players from now until forever, this is what you get out of 90% of the top tier draft picks in their rookie years. Very few have bucked the trend since the draft has trended toward youth and potential.
But that's the point. How many transcendent players started off in that 90% group?
The Wolves traded for Wiggins to be more than an average rookie... or even at the top end of that 90%. For the team to finally make the playoffs, or even get to .500 for the first time in 10+ years, Wiggins has to be a good player.
John Wall
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Durant
Recent #1 or #2 draft picks. They produced out of the gate and you knew instantly that they were destined for bigger and better things.
That's not to say Wiggins can't do it too. But he's shown more similarities to Darius Miles at this point.
We're all hoping he's just a bit rawer than most and that brighter days are ahead.
Actually that's not exactly correct Abe
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3202/year/2008/kevin-durant
I didn't bother to go past Durant, but I'm guessing you would see similar percentages other than for Blake since he actually didn't play a game his first season, and then pretty much only took layups and dunks, but Durant is probably the closest comparison size wise.
Darius Miles!!!! Seriously!!!
Cam, I am pretty sure that Barnes had actually fallen to 5 or lower before he decided to stay at UNC for his second year.
Wait. What?
Durant *was averaging 21 ppg his first month of the season. That's almost 2x more and with better percentages than Wiggins is putting up.
Wall was a 16/8 guy. I don't care if Blake Griffin only dunked off Deeandre Jordan's back as long as he was making an impact. Rose was a 17/6 guy with decent efficiency. Irving was 19 and 5.
Each guy looked the part immediately. *even though I was less than impressed with 1st year Durant. He seemed to have some bad habits... but he sure proved to overcome them... and then some.
As for Darius Miles... He averaged 10 ppg / 6 reb / / 1.6 blk / 53% fg in the month of December his rookie season. Again... we're talking production here... who does Wiggins more similarly to?
I pretty sure you were dissing WIggins on his percentages which are actually better than Durant's. You can sit here and cherry pick stats if you want, but I am not going to worry about Wiggins because he isn't taking over 17 shots a game on a team that thinks they have several other options. I guess we could put MCW up there with these top players since he put up 17/6/6 last season.