I honestly don't know what they do. They have a damn good team and players. Just looking at the regular season, they were #2 in offense and #3 in defense. I mean, what exactly do you shake up in terms of player personnel when you are top 3 in both offense and defense!?
It’s strange. I’ve thought all season and still believe now that the Celtics have the best roster in the NBA. Tatum and Brown are both stars. Smart is tremendous and tough. They have tremendous depth at the guard position with Brogdon and White. Horford still has game. Robert Williams is one of the League’s best shot blockers. But I’ve also thought all season that they were missing something. I watched them a number of times during the season and saw a team that would lose its focus all too often. We’re seeing that tendency in spades in the Miami series.
If I were the Celtics PBO, I don’t think I’d make any major changes to the roster. Instead, I’d view what happened this season as almost entirely a coaching problem. They have a terrible head coach and coaching staff. It’s almost that simple. Another piece of it is that Tatum and Brown are still young. We tend to forget how long it takes for great players to become championship caliber players. Michael Jordan was 28 when he won his first championship. Isiah Thomas was 27, Hakeem 31, Shaq 28, and Steph Curry 27 when they won his first championships. Tatum is 25 and Brown 26. So part of the issue in my view is that Tatum and Brown simply aren’t ready yet to lead their team to a championship.
Would I trade for Rudy Gobert if I were Boston’s PBO. No. He’s not what they need in my view. But I’m hoping the Celtics real PBO sees things differently.
The Celtics PBO is Brad Stevens.
He could solve a lot of their problems by simply returning to the sidelines. As for Brown and Tatum... while they're youngish... they have SO MUCH experience that you'd think would help them avoid this sort of meltdown. (or even on a smaller scale like last year in the Finals.)
It's crazy... but this is Jaylen Brown's 5th time in the ECF. Tatum has been there 4 times.
I don't know what the solution is for the Celtics... more time vs. roster moves. I think that decision is entirely about what's happening behind the scenes — and none of us know anything about that.
Ha, Jaylen Brown is 26 and he's already played in 101 playoff games. Tatum is 25 and has played in 90. That's just insane! Yeah, the youth and inexperience excuse definitely doesn't apply to the Celtics.
I'm starting to wonder if Jaylen Brown is a good enough #2 option. I don't think he really scares anyone that has more than one decent wing defender and by the time you get to the ECF and Finals, you are definitely going up against some pretty advanced defenses that have multiple guys capable of locking in - even guys that aren't normally considered all-NBA defense types during the regular season.
It’s strange. I’ve thought all season and still believe now that the Celtics have the best roster in the NBA. Tatum and Brown are both stars. Smart is tremendous and tough. They have tremendous depth at the guard position with Brogdon and White. Horford still has game. Robert Williams is one of the League’s best shot blockers. But I’ve also thought all season that they were missing something. I watched them a number of times during the season and saw a team that would lose its focus all too often. We’re seeing that tendency in spades in the Miami series.
If I were the Celtics PBO, I don’t think I’d make any major changes to the roster. Instead, I’d view what happened this season as almost entirely a coaching problem. They have a terrible head coach and coaching staff. It’s almost that simple. Another piece of it is that Tatum and Brown are still young. We tend to forget how long it takes for great players to become championship caliber players. Michael Jordan was 28 when he won his first championship. Isiah Thomas was 27, Hakeem 31, Shaq 28, and Steph Curry 27 when they won his first championships. Tatum is 25 and Brown 26. So part of the issue in my view is that Tatum and Brown simply aren’t ready yet to lead their team to a championship.
Would I trade for Rudy Gobert if I were Boston’s PBO. No. He’s not what they need in my view. But I’m hoping the Celtics real PBO sees things differently.
The Celtics PBO is Brad Stevens.
He could solve a lot of their problems by simply returning to the sidelines. As for Brown and Tatum... while they're youngish... they have SO MUCH experience that you'd think would help them avoid this sort of meltdown. (or even on a smaller scale like last year in the Finals.)
It's crazy... but this is Jaylen Brown's 5th time in the ECF. Tatum has been there 4 times.
I don't know what the solution is for the Celtics... more time vs. roster moves. I think that decision is entirely about what's happening behind the scenes — and none of us know anything about that.
Ha, Jaylen Brown is 26 and he's already played in 101 playoff games. Tatum is 25 and has played in 90. That's just insane! Yeah, the youth and inexperience excuse definitely doesn't apply to the Celtics.
I'm starting to wonder if Jaylen Brown is a good enough #2 option. I don't think he really scares anyone that has more than one decent wing defender and by the time you get to the ECF and Finals, you are definitely going up against some pretty advanced defenses that have multiple guys capable of locking in - even guys that aren't normally considered all-NBA defense types during the regular season.
Maybe. I can see some doubt about Brown... but I think the last two games skew what he's done in the playoffs.
In the 2020 ECF vs. this Miami team... Brown averaged 23/7/3 on 56/50 splits.
Last year in a tough 7-game battle vs. Milwaukee, Brown averaged 22/6/4 on 49/44 splits. In the ECF, he averaged 23/7/3 on 49/40 splits against this Heat team. He averaged 24/7/4 on 43/34 splits vs. GSW in the Finals.
Even with the really bad past two games... Brown is averaging 23/6/3 on 51/39 splits in 16 playoff games this season. Those are consistently solid numbers.
He could solve a lot of their problems by simply returning to the sidelines. As for Brown and Tatum... while they're youngish... they have SO MUCH experience that you'd think would help them avoid this sort of meltdown. (or even on a smaller scale like last year in the Finals.)
It's crazy... but this is Jaylen Brown's 5th time in the ECF. Tatum has been there 4 times.
I don't know what the solution is for the Celtics... more time vs. roster moves. I think that decision is entirely about what's happening behind the scenes — and none of us know anything about that.
Ha, Jaylen Brown is 26 and he's already played in 101 playoff games. Tatum is 25 and has played in 90. That's just insane! Yeah, the youth and inexperience excuse definitely doesn't apply to the Celtics.
I'm starting to wonder if Jaylen Brown is a good enough #2 option. I don't think he really scares anyone that has more than one decent wing defender and by the time you get to the ECF and Finals, you are definitely going up against some pretty advanced defenses that have multiple guys capable of locking in - even guys that aren't normally considered all-NBA defense types during the regular season.
Maybe. I can see some doubt about Brown... but I think the last two games skew what he's done in the playoffs.
In the 2020 ECF vs. this Miami team... Brown averaged 23/7/3 on 56/50 splits.
Last year in a tough 7-game battle vs. Milwaukee, Brown averaged 22/6/4 on 49/44 splits. In the ECF, he averaged 23/7/3 on 49/40 splits against this Heat team. He averaged 24/7/4 on 43/34 splits vs. GSW in the Finals.
Even with the really bad past two games... Brown is averaging 23/6/3 on 51/39 splits in 16 playoff games this season. Those are consistently solid numbers.
I mean, he's a really good player, but we are talking about the standard of being #2 on a championship team. I just don't think he's there yet. What you didn't include was his turnover and free throw rate, two things that are part of a player's overall efficiency on offense. He's pretty mediocre there for not being a point guard or #1 option.
I just think when searching for answers as to why Boston hasn't won a title with this group yet, Brown being not quite a good enough #2 might be in the mix of reasons.
Ha, Jaylen Brown is 26 and he's already played in 101 playoff games. Tatum is 25 and has played in 90. That's just insane! Yeah, the youth and inexperience excuse definitely doesn't apply to the Celtics.
I'm starting to wonder if Jaylen Brown is a good enough #2 option. I don't think he really scares anyone that has more than one decent wing defender and by the time you get to the ECF and Finals, you are definitely going up against some pretty advanced defenses that have multiple guys capable of locking in - even guys that aren't normally considered all-NBA defense types during the regular season.
Maybe. I can see some doubt about Brown... but I think the last two games skew what he's done in the playoffs.
In the 2020 ECF vs. this Miami team... Brown averaged 23/7/3 on 56/50 splits.
Last year in a tough 7-game battle vs. Milwaukee, Brown averaged 22/6/4 on 49/44 splits. In the ECF, he averaged 23/7/3 on 49/40 splits against this Heat team. He averaged 24/7/4 on 43/34 splits vs. GSW in the Finals.
Even with the really bad past two games... Brown is averaging 23/6/3 on 51/39 splits in 16 playoff games this season. Those are consistently solid numbers.
I mean, he's a really good player, but we are talking about the standard of being #2 on a championship team. I just don't think he's there yet. What you didn't include was his turnover and free throw rate, two things that are part of a player's overall efficiency on offense. He's pretty mediocre there for not being a point guard or #1 option.
I just think when searching for answers as to why Boston hasn't won a title with this group yet, Brown being not quite a good enough #2 might be in the mix of reasons.
Wait it’s Jaylen Brown’s fault the Celtics aren’t a championship team? Might want to review the stats from last year’s finals. I get GS keyed on Tatum but if he is a true star he should be able to play through all that right?
Maybe it’s not that significant but compared to last season Horford is basically a non favor on offense other than shooting 3’s which he isn’t doing well shooting under 30% compared to 48% last year in the playoffs. His TS% is under 50% which is terrible and he has taken just 2 FTs in the playoffs. Horford is basically averaging half as many points as last year in a a few minutes less a game. Basically based on the stats it looks like you can simply ignore him on offense. You couldn’t do that last year or if they did he made teams pay to some extent. That’s not a small thing to go from 12pm to just over 6ppg for a guy playing over 30mpg.
Maybe. I can see some doubt about Brown... but I think the last two games skew what he's done in the playoffs.
In the 2020 ECF vs. this Miami team... Brown averaged 23/7/3 on 56/50 splits.
Last year in a tough 7-game battle vs. Milwaukee, Brown averaged 22/6/4 on 49/44 splits. In the ECF, he averaged 23/7/3 on 49/40 splits against this Heat team. He averaged 24/7/4 on 43/34 splits vs. GSW in the Finals.
Even with the really bad past two games... Brown is averaging 23/6/3 on 51/39 splits in 16 playoff games this season. Those are consistently solid numbers.
I mean, he's a really good player, but we are talking about the standard of being #2 on a championship team. I just don't think he's there yet. What you didn't include was his turnover and free throw rate, two things that are part of a player's overall efficiency on offense. He's pretty mediocre there for not being a point guard or #1 option.
I just think when searching for answers as to why Boston hasn't won a title with this group yet, Brown being not quite a good enough #2 might be in the mix of reasons.
Wait it’s Jaylen Brown’s fault the Celtics aren’t a championship team? Might want to review the stats from last year’s finals. I get GS keyed on Tatum but if he is a true star he should be able to play through all that right?
Maybe it’s not that significant but compared to last season Horford is basically a non favor on offense other than shooting 3’s which he isn’t doing well shooting under 30% compared to 48% last year in the playoffs. His TS% is under 50% which is terrible and he has taken just 2 FTs in the playoffs. Horford is basically averaging half as many points as last year in a a few minutes less a game. Basically based on the stats it looks like you can simply ignore him on offense. You couldn’t do that last year or if they did he made teams pay to some extent. That’s not a small thing to go from 12pm to just over 6ppg for a guy playing over 30mpg.
Absolutely correct. Jaylen Brown has not the reason the Celtics are losing this series to Miami. Again, I think it’s almost entirely coaching. Tatum has failed to come through in key spots and I chalk that up partially to his age. Yes, he’s been in the League a long time, but I don’t think he’s ready yet to lead his team to a championship. But again, mostly it’s coaching in my view.
I'm not saying it's solely Brown's fault that Boston is going to miss the Finals and not win a title. I'm saying he's one of the reasons along with coaching and other factors as well.
Let's use Carlos's favorite measuring stick - VORP. We can also use Box Score Plus-Minus. Brown in this year's playoffs over all games has a VORP of .2 and a Box Score plus-minus of -.7. That's right - he's negative on BPM. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it for the guy who is supposed to be their second best player!
Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 7:40 pm
I'm not saying it's solely Brown's fault that Boston is going to miss the Finals and not win a title. I'm saying he's one of the reasons along with coaching and other factors as well.
Let's use Carlos's favorite measuring stick - VORP. We can also use Box Score Plus-Minus. Brown in this year's playoffs over all games has a VORP of .2 and a Box Score plus-minus of -.7. That's right - he's negative on BPM. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it for the guy who is supposed to be their second best player!
Or maybe it’s an example of how those stats are flawed? What exactly is it that’s making Brown Barely positive or a negative from these stats?
A lot of us have said it’s a coaching problem. What if the coach is a good coach he just isn’t nailing it his rookie year especially against the best coach in the league? Maybe they should hire the best coach available…which I don’t know who has been hired after being axed etc. Maybe he is a good coach that isn’t quite ready to be a championship coach. Plenty of rookie coaches have done it recently but it doesn’t mean that guys is gonna do it. Heck one of those guys just got fired. As someone else pointed out maybe he needs more help from assistants. Those guys matter too. I’m just throwing that out there. I haven’t watch enough games to say he sucks or is awesome or whatever and maybe hiring an accomplished head coach is a better answer but Morey made a point in a podcast years ago that coaches and GMs sometimes take time to get to their best too. Fortunately Boston will likely have plenty of options there.
I don't really follow the other games much. But just looking at what Brown has done in the Miami series:
Game 1: 1 of 6 on 3 pointers. Only 1 point from free throws and 6 turnovers.
Game 2: 1 of 7 on 3 pointers. Only 1 point from free throws. 2 turnovers.
Game 3: 0 of 7 on 3 pointers. Zero free throws. 3 turnovers.
Those are not great numbers. Doesn't mean he's a bad player. Just means he's not having an efficient series and I assume why his VORP isn't great.
Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 7:40 pm
I'm not saying it's solely Brown's fault that Boston is going to miss the Finals and not win a title. I'm saying he's one of the reasons along with coaching and other factors as well.
Let's use Carlos's favorite measuring stick - VORP. We can also use Box Score Plus-Minus. Brown in this year's playoffs over all games has a VORP of .2 and a Box Score plus-minus of -.7. That's right - he's negative on BPM. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it for the guy who is supposed to be their second best player!
Or maybe it’s an example of how those stats are flawed? What exactly is it that’s making Brown Barely positive or a negative from these stats?
A lot of us have said it’s a coaching problem. What if the coach is a good coach he just isn’t nailing it his rookie year especially against the best coach in the league? Maybe they should hire the best coach available…which I don’t know who has been hired after being axed etc. Maybe he is a good coach that isn’t quite ready to be a championship coach. Plenty of rookie coaches have done it recently but it doesn’t mean that guys is gonna do it. Heck one of those guys just got fired. As someone else pointed out maybe he needs more help from assistants. Those guys matter too. I’m just throwing that out there. I haven’t watch enough games to say he sucks or is awesome or whatever and maybe hiring an accomplished head coach is a better answer but Morey made a point in a podcast years ago that coaches and GMs sometimes take time to get to their best too. Fortunately Boston will likely have plenty of options there.
Monster, if you drill into the individual areas he's struggling with that can be measured in the box score, one is that he turns the ball over too much for a guy who doesn't play point guard nor is the #1 scoring option. It sounds like you don't watch a lot of games based on your own admission, but if you did, you would see how often Brown gets the ball stripped or poked away from him on his drives. Which leads to the second part....
He also has struggled to draw fouls, and when he does get to the line, his free throw % has been sub-par.
Again, he's still a really good player. My point isn't to say he's a liability. But if you are talking about being the #2 player on a championship team, the bar is really high. He's not there in my opinion and I just gave you two very specific reasons why.
Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon May 22, 2023 9:13 pm
I don't really follow the other games much. But just looking at what Brown has done in the Miami series:
Game 1: 1 of 6 on 3 pointers. Only 1 point from free throws and 6 turnovers.
Game 2: 1 of 7 on 3 pointers. Only 1 point from free throws. 2 turnovers.
Game 3: 0 of 7 on 3 pointers. Zero free throws. 3 turnovers.
Those are not great numbers. Doesn't mean he's a bad player. Just means he's not having an efficient series and I assume why his VORP isn't great.
Yeah, these three games against Miami have definitely impacted his overall numbers.
