Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

TheSP wrote:

thedoper wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32452090/ben-simmons-tells-philadelphia-76ers-not-mentally-ready-play-sources-say

Seems to be going to a new low when a player has to claim a mental health condition (that could be potentially fabricated) to get paid. This has become the holy grail for a soft generation, you just say mental health and by law the whole narrative has to change. Our world is fucked up. I don't want Simmons on our team if they start giving him Adderall. That shit will change you completely.

He's basically a passive aggressive Jimmy Butler at this point.

Right? Its insane. His value is plummeting because of the Sixers and him combined.

I'd love for that to continue to the point where Philadelphia's ownership gets involved and they take absolute pennies on the dollar, similar to how Glen Taylor got involved in the Jimmy Butler trade saga. It would be sweet justice for the Wolves to eventually acquire Ben Simmons for something as little as Malik Beasley, Taurean Prince, and one/two first-round picks.

That's what I would call up and offer, and make it clear to Morey that it won't change.

The most ideal would be Beverley, Prince, and 3-4 first rounders, but they likely want a young talent locked up for a few years ala Beasley.

thedoper wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Camden wrote:

thedoper wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32452090/ben-simmons-tells-philadelphia-76ers-not-mentally-ready-play-sources-say

Seems to be going to a new low when a player has to claim a mental health condition (that could be potentially fabricated) to get paid. This has become the holy grail for a soft generation, you just say mental health and by law the whole narrative has to change. Our world is fucked up. I don't want Simmons on our team if they start giving him Adderall. That shit will change you completely.

Get that money. I don't blame him even if he is making it up. Both sides of this have played it dirty.

I always felt like Kevin Love was not in a good place mentally through the time he made his trade demand. It seemed like it really wore on him. He seemed off and then we found out years later he was dealing with some legit metal health issues.

It will be unfortunate if Simmons uses this mental health angle to get paid and not have to play when there are people with legit mental health issues that affect their ability to function. Do I think Simmons likely isn't ready to play mentally right now? Nope...at least not for the Sixers. Its it possible he is going through something right now? Yes although I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt on that.

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32452090/ben-simmons-tells-philadelphia-76ers-not-mentally-ready-play-sources-say

Seems to be going to a new low when a player has to claim a mental health condition (that could be potentially fabricated) to get paid. This has become the holy grail for a soft generation, you just say mental health and by law the whole narrative has to change. Our world is fucked up. I don't want Simmons on our team if they start giving him Adderall. That shit will change you completely.

Get that money. I don't blame him even if he is making it up. Both sides of this have played it dirty.

Maybe yes, but if the outcome is that he is prescribed medication or there is conditional treatment then this whole thing is fucked up. Wasting medical professionals time so a basketball player can get paid is a circus. I agree that Philly has been shitty but this is a step too far for what I would aspire too in this situation. Granted Ive never been in this employment situation.

Its not like anyone can force him to take medication. Besides he wouldn't even use the prescribed shooting coach the Sixers offered so... lol It will be a shame if he uses this for his gain and its not really a legit mental health issue. I remember thinking that when Love made his trade request from the Wolves it seemed as time went on it really weighed on him. It turns out he was likely going through some mental health issues at the time and it ended up getting worse before he got help. I'm sure this whole thing hasn't been great for Ben Simmons mentally but this certainly seems convenient for him to claim now. If suggested or strongly recommended seeing a therapist if he is actually willing to do something worthwhile during the sessions might actually be helpful. If he is just going through the motions...well I'm sure whoever that professional is won't mind getting the paycheck.

It will be interesting to see if the Sixers really can wait this out as they say they want to. If they have the balls to do that to some extent you gotta respect that. If they make something work out well for them it will be the first time in a number of years (Maybe ever) that this type of thing has played out like that to the advantage of the team that received the trade demand.

If Simmons is getting out of this via a medical issue, then a doctor would have to clear him to play. If a doctor prescribed medications it could realistically be a condition for him to play again. My point is more general that this isn't something to treat as a negotiating tactic, because the stakes can have an actual lasting effect on your life. But ultimately you are pointing out the reality of it. Who actually knows? There are likely mental health concerns there, but the optics of all of this seem distasteful on both sides.

You bring up some good points. I believe for Simmons to be prescribed medications he would have to be diagnosed with an actual condition...which lets be honest he might have a mental health issue that he doesn't even know about. He is 25 some people's brains don't finish developing till around 30. It's possible he sits down with someone and finds out something kinda like those players that find out they have a heart issue and had no idea. It could also be some sort of trauma thing he didn't know was an issue like Love. Still if prescribed medication isn't a guarantee solution for mental health diagnosis and like you said it can have negative effects. So not everyone is going to agree to take it and rightly so. It seems quite unlikely Simmons or the people around him are going to let him get drugged up if he doesn't need it. I don't know for certain but I'm pretty sure the NBA or whatever Medical profession he visits won't have the power to make him take medications that he doesn't want to take. If nothing else someone would have a field day with that.

We agree this likely isn't a good look for either side.

Here are some of my thoughts after reflecting a little more on the Simmons situation. Yes, Simmons is under contract for the next four years. In that sense, Morey has the high ground. But what Morey doesn't get or refuses to acknowledge is that reality extends well beyond the four corners of that contract. The reality is that Morey is in charge of an organization that has screwed up in the way they've handled Simmons and there are consequences to those screwups as there always are with any significant mistakes.

The organization first screwed up by failing to deal one way or another with (1) both personal and on-court incompatibility issues that reportedly existed between Simmons and Embiid for years; (2) Ben's failure to improve his shooting; and (3) Ben's refusal to work with the shooting coach the Sixers hired to help. Instead, the Sixers moved forward and re-signed Simmons without batting an eye as if nothing was wrong. They could have traded Simmons at that point for a king's ransom before last season, but they chose a different path.

The organization screwed up again when early last season they essentially reached a deal to trade Simmons for Harden only to have the deal fall through at least in part because Houston's front office executives couldn't stand Daryl Morey. The obvious message to Simmons at that point was that the organization was looking to move on from him. That goes with the territory and you can't fault Philly's front office for trying to swap Simmons for Harden. However, there are consequences that flow from a failed effort to trade one of your players. It can't help but have a psychological effect on the player you tried to trade. So when a front office moves beyond the discussion phase and gets to the point where they actually make a deal, they had better be dam sure the deal happens. In this case it didn't and there are consequences that flow from that. It would also appear that the Sixers' front office did little, if anything, to smooth things over with Simmons after the deal fell through. Again, there are consequences.

Of course, the organization screwed up after they were knocked out of the playoffs when the team's head coach and best player, along with another player (Danny Green), publicly threw Simmons under the bus for the team's early playoff exit. Yes, Simmons did not perform. But it's ridiculous to single him out for what was clearly a team failure in a team sport. Moreover, to the extent that Simmons bore a significant share of the blame, it is a fundamental precept of team sports that coaches and teammates don't publicly assign blame to individual members of the team. Yet, they did it. And they compounded the mistake by failing to walk back from or temper those remarks until their obviously disingenuous overtures months later in a thinly veiled, pathetic effort to rehab Simmons' trade value. The fact that the team's head coach and best player so readily threw Simmons under the bus in public reflects the Sixers' organizational culture at least regarding Simmons. And that culture, in turn, reflects on the organization's front office executives. The long delay before the Sixers attempted any corrective action and the obvious insincerity of those belated actions also reflects on the organization as a whole and it's front office in particular.

The organization also screwed up when the Sixers' organization reportedly rejected very solid offers for Simmons that were fair under the circumstances. Instead, Morey inflexibly insisted on Hardenesque returns for a player who is really good but not at the level of a James Harden, Kevin Durant, LeBron James or even Anthony Davis. The fact that the Sixers were obviously trying to trade Simmons in the wake of the public finger-pointing by his coach and teammates further reduced his market value going into the offseason. Those are realities that Morey stubbornly chose to ignore. And as time wore on, Simmons' market value predictably declined even further as other organizations became fed up with Morey's arrogance and moved on to make other deals and become more invested in their own rosters.

Morey has made a career out of exploiting market opportunities with teams in distress who needed to move on from certain players because of salary cap or player-relations issues. Now the shoe's on the other foot but Morey's behaving as if it's not. Some observers have referred to Morey as a genius and apparently he thinks of himself as one. But he's not a genius or all that smart; he's just an opportunist. He previously took advantage of market opportunities. But now he's acting as if the market doesn't exist as he insists on getting a return for Simmons the market doesn't support. He carries on as if the rules don't apply to him in some alternative ego-driven reality where the organization under his authority can make a series of major undisciplined mistakes but not suffer any adverse consequences.

In his latest diatribe declaring he won't give in and deal Simmons without getting a star in return, Morey said: "Would you rather eliminate what people perceive to be a distraction, or would you rather have better playoff odds? I'll take playoff odds... Whatever we have to deal with that helps the Philadelphia 76ers win the title, we'll do it." We'll, who can argue with that? But his cute rhetorical question and equally rhetorical answer sidestep the issue. The real question is whether the Sixers' playoff odds are better than they would have been if they had taken one of the offers reportedly on the table earlier in the process - VanVleet + Anuoby + a future 1st; or Haliburton + Barnes + future picks; or Brogdon + LeVert; or Dejounte Murray + other assets. I'm sure there were other offers as well. I would submit that any one of those deals would have put the Sixers in a better position this season than they're in now. The situation they face now goes beyond the immediate distraction, which can interfere with the focus needed to win in the highly competitive NBA. Note that these early games really do matter when it comes to playoff seeding and could make the difference between advancing and not advancing. The Sixers also face at least some period of time without Simmons on the court, perhaps for legitimate mental or physical health issues if not just Ben's own stubbornness. As a result, the Sixers will for some period of time have to rely on 2nd-year player Maxey as their starting PG instead of what could have been VanVleet, Brogdon Haliburton or Dejounte Murray. And even if Simmons eventually plays, which I think he will, it will be an unhappy Simmons who will likely still have the same shooting issues that caused the Sixers to put him on the trade block in the first place.

Things might still work out for Morey and the Sixers. They might still make the playoffs and advance to the finals and they might even win the championship. If so it will be luck, not genius.

You nailed it, Lip. I couldn't have said it better myself and agree with everything you laid out here. Ben Simmons isn't innocent in this, but the real blame indeed belongs to the Philadelphia 76ers organization. That's just the truth of the matter for all the reasons you mentioned.

Camden0916 wrote:You nailed it, Lip. I couldn't have said it better myself and agree with everything you laid out here. Ben Simmons isn't innocent in this, but the real blame indeed belongs to the Philadelphia 76ers organization. That's just the truth of the matter for all the reasons you mentioned.

I'll add this: Does anyone REALLY believe the Sixers (front office and Doc Rivers) really want Ben Simmons the person back on their squad? We don't know everything that's transpired but Simmons absolutely seems to me like simply an asset to Morey. I haven't heard them be like. "Man we love and support Ben we know all he went through must have been hard but we believe 100 percent in Ben Simmons and we believe he can be the best version of him self." Nope at best they have said he is a piece to help them win. Rosas said stuff like that about Wiggins and I think it was mostly true. They could have at least put up a real front while trying to trade him. Meanwhile Doc Rivers basically made jokes about Simmons basically believing in alternative facts was a slap in the face you don't make if you REALLY want that guy back. If you wonder why Simmons wants out this is likely a big part of it. The Sixers aren't really invested in him anymore. They are basically ready to move on as long as they get their price/player in return and let's be honest what would you have to add to Simmons to get a player like Lilliard? I think it's possibly more than one more asset in addition to Simmons.

What's so dumbfounding about this situation is I think most people thought that it was time for a change. Get a nice return for Simmons and get some players that fit better and move Simmons to a better situation/a fresh start. I think it's was obvious he had something metal keeping him from performing. I thought maybe that it would all blow over and everything would be fine but I also thought it made sense to move on because the pieces didn't fit. The situation didn't get better it got worse and it feels like the Sixers did nothing but wait till they could get Lilliard or Beal or whatever and Simmons just waiting for the next ball to drop. He decided he had enough of that shit and I don't blame him.

Like Cam said is Simmons Blameless in this? Absolutely not. Does he have the right to want out? I think so and if it's him not being happy around pretty much anyone with the Sixers organization including a security guard or whatever...well I wouldn't do that but I also would pull a Morey and stubbornly hold a guy hostage when teams are offering some legitimate packages that could make my team better.

Also I think Rivers the coach is part of the reason Simmons wants out. Whether that's on Rivers or Simmons or some of both I don't know but my guess it that it's likely this was starting to be a problem well before Rivers comments during the playoffs.

Good points, Monster. I agree with you on Doc Rivers as one of the reasons Simmons wants out. Doc publicly threw Simmons under the bus right after the team was eliminated from the playoffs and, as you noted, Doc then mocked Simmons in his appearance on MSNBC. If I bought that team, I'd immediately fire Morey and Doc.

lipoli390 wrote:Good points, Monster. I agree with you on Doc Rivers as one of the reasons Simmons wants out. Doc publicly threw Simmons under the bus right after the team was eliminated from the playoffs and, as you noted, Doc then mocked Simmons in his appearance on MSNBC. If I bought that team, I'd immediately fire Morey and Doc.

Lip I was suggesting (although admittedly speculating) that Doc's actual coaching is a reason why Simmons wants out.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Good points, Monster. I agree with you on Doc Rivers as one of the reasons Simmons wants out. Doc publicly threw Simmons under the bus right after the team was eliminated from the playoffs and, as you noted, Doc then mocked Simmons in his appearance on MSNBC. If I bought that team, I'd immediately fire Morey and Doc.

Lip I was suggesting (although admittedly speculating) that Doc's actual coaching is a reason why Simmons wants out.

Hmm. I think you're on to something there. You're probably right that Simmons didn't like playing for Doc. On the flip side, I suspect Doc didn't like coaching him. Hence, Doc's post game comment throwing Simmons under the bus.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Good points, Monster. I agree with you on Doc Rivers as one of the reasons Simmons wants out. Doc publicly threw Simmons under the bus right after the team was eliminated from the playoffs and, as you noted, Doc then mocked Simmons in his appearance on MSNBC. If I bought that team, I'd immediately fire Morey and Doc.

Lip I was suggesting (although admittedly speculating) that Doc's actual coaching is a reason why Simmons wants out.

Hmm. I think you're on to something there. You're probably right that Simmons didn't like playing for Doc. On the flip side, I suspect Doc didn't like coaching him. Hence, Doc's post game comment throwing Simmons under the bus.

I don't take what Brian Windhorst saying too seriously but he did mention that a Simmons didn't like how he was used under Rivers. I believe there was someone else that said something similar but I might be misremembering that. We didn't know how well Simmons takes to coaching. Apparently Luka didn't like Rick Carlisle coaching him...which was interesting after watching that Shannon Sharpe video with ametta a world Peace who had very positive things to say about Carlisle but also said that some guys didn't like to be coached by him but he loved being coached by him. Having said all that not every coach and player are a good fit for each other.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Good points, Monster. I agree with you on Doc Rivers as one of the reasons Simmons wants out. Doc publicly threw Simmons under the bus right after the team was eliminated from the playoffs and, as you noted, Doc then mocked Simmons in his appearance on MSNBC. If I bought that team, I'd immediately fire Morey and Doc.

Lip I was suggesting (although admittedly speculating) that Doc's actual coaching is a reason why Simmons wants out.

Hmm. I think you're on to something there. You're probably right that Simmons didn't like playing for Doc. On the flip side, I suspect Doc didn't like coaching him. Hence, Doc's post game comment throwing Simmons under the bus.

I don't take what Brian Windhorst saying too seriously but he did mention that a Simmons didn't like how he was used under Rivers. I believe there was someone else that said something similar but I might be misremembering that. We didn't know how well Simmons takes to coaching. Apparently Luka didn't like Rick Carlisle coaching him...which was interesting after watching that Shannon Sharpe video with ametta a world Peace who had very positive things to say about Carlisle but also said that some guys didn't like to be coached by him but he loved being coached by him. Having said all that not every coach and player are a good fit for each other.

I also remember those reports you're referring to. And I agree that not every coach and player fit well together. That's an often overlooked consideration. The top priority of any NBA organization should be accumulating talent. But it's also a matter of how that talent fits together. Likewise, the second priority should be hiring the best possible head coach. But it's also a matter of how that coach will fit with the team's players, especially the team's top players. The good news for the Wolves is that apparently, KAT, Ant , DLO and Beverley all all on record saying they really like Finch and are in sync with his coaching philosophy. We'll see how that holds up, but so far so good.