Don't know if this has been posted - Flip keeping options open

[zigzag22 [enjin:6591633]]

Trades ideas and discussions are fun and all, but sometimes you just have the best hand and don't need to bluff or overplay it.

Just draft Towns. Simple. He is the best player, he fills the biggest hole on the roster, and his game is well suited for the direction the league is going. Please, please, please don't let Flip overthink this.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

khans, I think you make some good points.

But what happens when you get a Johnny Flynn situation, or a Teddy Bridgewater situation where the workout just happens to make people think about your athleticism rather than actual basketball skill in a game situation, or happens to be just a great/terrible day for that player?

We're talking about a 3 man race for the top pick. I don't think any of the 3 could do enough in a workout to take the top spot from someone else. It's just an opportunity to backup what everyone is preaching about them.

Than why do them?

So we know what they can actually do. Otherwise what's stopping every coach and trainer from making shit up about their players to get them drafted higher? I could say Okafor has developed a mid-range game since college and if he doesn't workout and prove it and you trust what I have to say then you may have just been misled. A workout is an easy bullshit detector. You make it out like workouts are the devil and are useless. They matter. They have a role. They don't drive decisions in good front offices, but they help teams make a more informed decision. You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information. In what world is that ever a smart decision?

[Coolbreeze44]

khans, I think you make some good points.

But what happens when you get a Johnny Flynn situation, or a Teddy Bridgewater situation where the workout just happens to make people think about your athleticism rather than actual basketball skill in a game situation, or happens to be just a great/terrible day for that player?

We're talking about a 3 man race for the top pick. I don't think any of the 3 could do enough in a workout to take the top spot from someone else. It's just an opportunity to backup what everyone is preaching about them.

Than why do them?

I told you why they do them. Now you may be smarter and a better judge of talent than 30 NBA GM's. You may be better than the methods that have been developed since Naismith hung up a peach basket. But the reason they hold the workouts is what I told you earlier in the thread. If you don't believe that, call into Barreiro before next weeks Funkadelic and have him ask Flip why the workouts are important. You will get the same answer.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

khans, I think you make some good points.

But what happens when you get a Johnny Flynn situation, or a Teddy Bridgewater situation where the workout just happens to make people think about your athleticism rather than actual basketball skill in a game situation, or happens to be just a great/terrible day for that player?

We're talking about a 3 man race for the top pick. I don't think any of the 3 could do enough in a workout to take the top spot from someone else. It's just an opportunity to backup what everyone is preaching about them.

Than why do them?

So we know what they can actually do. Otherwise what's stopping every coach and trainer from making shit up about their players to get them drafted higher? I could say Okafor has developed a mid-range game since college and if he doesn't workout and prove it and you trust what I have to say then you may have just been misled. A workout is an easy bullshit detector. You make it out like workouts are the devil and are useless. They matter. They have a role. They don't drive decisions in good front offices, but they help teams make a more informed decision. You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information. In what world is that ever a smart decision?

You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information - Yup, I am arguing it. I'd rather have less information than bad, invalid information. A single workout against cones won't tell us anything. They aren't going to work out for us anyway, so it's a moot point. And that's a good thing.

In what world is that ever a smart decision? - The world where Jonny Flynn got picked because of a great workout, while Steph Curry was skipped because he refused to workout for us. That world.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

khans, I think you make some good points.

But what happens when you get a Johnny Flynn situation, or a Teddy Bridgewater situation where the workout just happens to make people think about your athleticism rather than actual basketball skill in a game situation, or happens to be just a great/terrible day for that player?

We're talking about a 3 man race for the top pick. I don't think any of the 3 could do enough in a workout to take the top spot from someone else. It's just an opportunity to backup what everyone is preaching about them.

Than why do them?

I told you why they do them. Now you may be smarter and a better judge of talent than 30 NBA GM's. You may be better than the methods that have been developed since Naismith hung up a peach basket. But the reason they hold the workouts is what I told you earlier in the thread. If you don't believe that, call into Barreiro before next weeks Funkadelic and have him ask Flip why the workouts are important. You will get the same answer.

I'm not a better judge of talent that these guys, but they should have enough confidence in their abilities to judge guys based on a huge body of work in real games that already exists. A non-contact workout is totally unnecessary and may tip the scale toward the wrong decision.

Of course Flip is going to say workouts are important. It's dogma to these guys. That doesn't mean it makes sense.

[TRKO [enjin:12664595]]

khans, I think you make some good points.

But what happens when you get a Johnny Flynn situation, or a Teddy Bridgewater situation where the workout just happens to make people think about your athleticism rather than actual basketball skill in a game situation, or happens to be just a great/terrible day for that player?

We're talking about a 3 man race for the top pick. I don't think any of the 3 could do enough in a workout to take the top spot from someone else. It's just an opportunity to backup what everyone is preaching about them.

Than why do them?

So we know what they can actually do. Otherwise what's stopping every coach and trainer from making shit up about their players to get them drafted higher? I could say Okafor has developed a mid-range game since college and if he doesn't workout and prove it and you trust what I have to say then you may have just been misled. A workout is an easy bullshit detector. You make it out like workouts are the devil and are useless. They matter. They have a role. They don't drive decisions in good front offices, but they help teams make a more informed decision. You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information. In what world is that ever a smart decision?

You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information - Yup, I am arguing it. I'd rather have less information than bad, invalid information. A single workout against cones won't tell us anything. They aren't going to work out for us anyway, so it's a moot point. And that's a good thing.

In what world is that ever a smart decision? - The world where Jonny Flynn got picked because of a great workout, while Steph Curry was skipped because he refused to workout for us. That world.

I think everybody is talking past each other. We are not saying that we need to base picks off of workouts, but workouts are needed to break ties. The workout isn't necessarily about the skills, but more about who the player reacts to the coaches in a practice like setting. Russell, Okafor, and Towns are pretty evenly matched, so every bit of information is vital.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

khans, I think you make some good points.

But what happens when you get a Johnny Flynn situation, or a Teddy Bridgewater situation where the workout just happens to make people think about your athleticism rather than actual basketball skill in a game situation, or happens to be just a great/terrible day for that player?

We're talking about a 3 man race for the top pick. I don't think any of the 3 could do enough in a workout to take the top spot from someone else. It's just an opportunity to backup what everyone is preaching about them.

Than why do them?

So we know what they can actually do. Otherwise what's stopping every coach and trainer from making shit up about their players to get them drafted higher? I could say Okafor has developed a mid-range game since college and if he doesn't workout and prove it and you trust what I have to say then you may have just been misled. A workout is an easy bullshit detector. You make it out like workouts are the devil and are useless. They matter. They have a role. They don't drive decisions in good front offices, but they help teams make a more informed decision. You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information. In what world is that ever a smart decision?

You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information - Yup, I am arguing it. I'd rather have less information than bad, invalid information. A single workout against cones won't tell us anything. They aren't going to work out for us anyway, so it's a moot point. And that's a good thing.

In what world is that ever a smart decision? - The world where Jonny Flynn got picked because of a great workout, while Steph Curry was skipped because he refused to workout for us. That world.

You mean a world that was years ago under different management? That makes sense to keep bringing it up like history is going to repeat itself with a completely new management team. You're arguing the outlier, not the norm.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

khans, I think you make some good points.

But what happens when you get a Johnny Flynn situation, or a Teddy Bridgewater situation where the workout just happens to make people think about your athleticism rather than actual basketball skill in a game situation, or happens to be just a great/terrible day for that player?

We're talking about a 3 man race for the top pick. I don't think any of the 3 could do enough in a workout to take the top spot from someone else. It's just an opportunity to backup what everyone is preaching about them.

Than why do them?

So we know what they can actually do. Otherwise what's stopping every coach and trainer from making shit up about their players to get them drafted higher? I could say Okafor has developed a mid-range game since college and if he doesn't workout and prove it and you trust what I have to say then you may have just been misled. A workout is an easy bullshit detector. You make it out like workouts are the devil and are useless. They matter. They have a role. They don't drive decisions in good front offices, but they help teams make a more informed decision. You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information. In what world is that ever a smart decision?

You're literally arguing we should make a decision for the #1 pick in the draft with less information - Yup, I am arguing it. I'd rather have less information than bad, invalid information. A single workout against cones won't tell us anything. They aren't going to work out for us anyway, so it's a moot point. And that's a good thing.

In what world is that ever a smart decision? - The world where Jonny Flynn got picked because of a great workout, while Steph Curry was skipped because he refused to workout for us. That world.

I think everybody is talking past each other. We are not saying that we need to base picks off of workouts, but workouts are needed to break ties. The workout isn't necessarily about the skills, but more about who the player reacts to the coaches in a practice like setting. Russell, Okafor, and Towns are pretty evenly matched, so every bit of information is vital.

But according to Q workouts can only lead to incorrect decisions. They've never helped a good decision. They are pointless and are more negative than positive. They've caused more problems than they've solved because organizations just don't know how to evaluate a workout properly.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think everybody is talking past each other. We are not saying that we need to base picks off of workouts, but workouts are needed to break ties. The workout isn't necessarily about the skills, but more about who the player reacts to the coaches in a practice like setting. Russell, Okafor, and Towns are pretty evenly matched, so every bit of information is vital.

I don't see how a single workout would break a tie between two players that have hundreds of hours of game action on record (and captured on video). I'd rather use positional fit or team needs (e.g. shooting, defense, etc.) to break ties.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

You mean a world that was years ago under different management? That makes sense to keep bringing it up like history is going to repeat itself with a completely new management team. You're arguing the outlier, not the norm.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Read the article I posted earlier on the Marcus Smart workout and some of Danny Ainge's comments. Reading his quotes, you can tell he's not even sure himself whether these workouts really mean anything.

I think they come in handy for under-the-radar guys that your team didn't scout in person and have very little video on. Typically those guys are also willing to come in and compete in live game action with other similar prospects. That's the one scenario I see them as being useful.