Minnesota Sports Forum

One thing I was thinking about this morning during my daily Wiggins meditation time is that I think at this point Towns still believes in Wiggins based on a number of comments he has made. Maybe he really doesn't but I tend to think he still does. What happens if/(Likely)when that changes?

monsterpile wrote:

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Even supposedly good shooters come to Minnesota and suck. I'm sure Morris and Beasley would ride the pine here too, only because they wouldn't be getting good shots. Be it our system, personnel, or the stars that dominate the ball we are able to take anyone and make them a worse shooter.

I think there is a tangible positive effect that Jokic has on his teammates numbers. Jokic is a great screen setter, this is a weakness for Towns. Jokic is also an amazing passer even when he isn't registering an assist. This is a part of his game that Towns has yet to excel at either because of lack of opportunity or lack of ability. I think screen setting alone is one way that Jokic makes his teammates better on the offensive side of the floor.

Jokic doesn't have Towns ability to score, but he is much easier to play with and lifts the games of his teammates. I don't really see how this can be argued against.

I hope everyone on our team improves. Wiggins, Towns, Dieng, all of them. Because development is the only way this team will ever compete for anything.The real problem of this team since KG has been our utter lack of ability to develop anyone to exceed expectations. We've had some players who have met expectations to a point (Towns and Love), but I can't remember a diamond in the rough who we've seen really blossom into something greater than the expectations for them in our system. Every other relevant team, (Denver included) seems to have that. Right now Towns is meeting everyone's expectations (albeit barely) so they'd rather talk about players (Wiggins) who have preformed below expectations regardless of whether those expectations were ever realistic. The reality is that everyone on this team has lots of room for improvement. I'm personally optimistic about our talent in a vacuum. I don't think we're that far off from Denver in that aspect. What I'm very skeptical on is our ability to mold that talent, which is where I've seen us get burned for decades on.

Generally I agree with your post. I will say that I think Love blew past expectations and mostly in spite of the organization he played for although Adelman was the coach that got the most out of him in his whole career.

I thought about that too. Adelman had his issues but was probably our best coach. He tried to do as much as possible with a real shit roster. Maybe Love can be our case for performing above expectations and our excellent development. His inflated numbers got us Wiggins too. Score!!! :)

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Even supposedly good shooters come to Minnesota and suck. I'm sure Morris and Beasley would ride the pine here too, only because they wouldn't be getting good shots. Be it our system, personnel, or the stars that dominate the ball we are able to take anyone and make them a worse shooter.

I think there is a tangible positive effect that Jokic has on his teammates numbers. Jokic is a great screen setter, this is a weakness for Towns. Jokic is also an amazing passer even when he isn't registering an assist. This is a part of his game that Towns has yet to excel at either because of lack of opportunity or lack of ability. I think screen setting alone is one way that Jokic makes his teammates better on the offensive side of the floor.

Jokic doesn't have Towns ability to score, but he is much easier to play with and lifts the games of his teammates. I don't really see how this can be argued against.

I hope everyone on our team improves. Wiggins, Towns, Dieng, all of them. Because development is the only way this team will ever compete for anything.The real problem of this team since KG has been our utter lack of ability to develop anyone to exceed expectations. We've had some players who have met expectations to a point (Towns and Love), but I can't remember a diamond in the rough who we've seen really blossom into something greater than the expectations for them in our system. Every other relevant team, (Denver included) seems to have that. Right now Towns is meeting everyone's expectations (albeit barely) so they'd rather talk about players (Wiggins) who have preformed below expectations regardless of whether those expectations were ever realistic. The reality is that everyone on this team has lots of room for improvement. I'm personally optimistic about our talent in a vacuum. I don't think we're that far off from Denver in that aspect. What I'm very skeptical on is our ability to mold that talent, which is where I've seen us get burned for decades on.

Whew, the bold text is a doozy. I'm looking at the rosters side-by-side and it's really not even close. Care to expound this point or should we all ignore it and trudge on? Minnesota has a pretty bare cupboard right now and Denver has an embarrassment of riches.

The bottom line is the Wolves have been a top 12 NBA offense since KAT was a rookie with subpar talent except for the Jimmy year (we were 4th in offense that season because KAT finally had a competent peer on the team).

Whether he makes other people better or not can be argued, but he by himself makes an entire offense better even if he's the one making the shots. He and Jokic are both great players. They just achieve their excellence in different ways.

I do think the offense this season will put KAT in more of a position to set up other guys, but whether they are capable of actually finishing plays/making open shots is seriously in doubt.

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Even supposedly good shooters come to Minnesota and suck. I'm sure Morris and Beasley would ride the pine here too, only because they wouldn't be getting good shots. Be it our system, personnel, or the stars that dominate the ball we are able to take anyone and make them a worse shooter.

I think there is a tangible positive effect that Jokic has on his teammates numbers. Jokic is a great screen setter, this is a weakness for Towns. Jokic is also an amazing passer even when he isn't registering an assist. This is a part of his game that Towns has yet to excel at either because of lack of opportunity or lack of ability. I think screen setting alone is one way that Jokic makes his teammates better on the offensive side of the floor.

Jokic doesn't have Towns ability to score, but he is much easier to play with and lifts the games of his teammates. I don't really see how this can be argued against.

I hope everyone on our team improves. Wiggins, Towns, Dieng, all of them. Because development is the only way this team will ever compete for anything.The real problem of this team since KG has been our utter lack of ability to develop anyone to exceed expectations. We've had some players who have met expectations to a point (Towns and Love), but I can't remember a diamond in the rough who we've seen really blossom into something greater than the expectations for them in our system. Every other relevant team, (Denver included) seems to have that. Right now Towns is meeting everyone's expectations (albeit barely) so they'd rather talk about players (Wiggins) who have preformed below expectations regardless of whether those expectations were ever realistic. The reality is that everyone on this team has lots of room for improvement. I'm personally optimistic about our talent in a vacuum. I don't think we're that far off from Denver in that aspect. What I'm very skeptical on is our ability to mold that talent, which is where I've seen us get burned for decades on.

Whew, the bold text is a doozy. I'm looking at the rosters side-by-side and it's really not even close. Care to expound this point or should we all ignore it and trudge on? Minnesota has a pretty bare cupboard right now and Denver has an embarrassment of riches.

I think in the margins (bench depth) they're better and at the 4 it's not even close. But if for instance Okogie (not too confident in this) or Culver become players we could close the gap further. On talent alone (like if I were picking 5 to win at pickup) with good health I take Jokic over Towns (barely), Milsap over anyone, Roco over Murray (I know you like Murray, I'm not crazy about him and I love what Roco brings to a team), Wiggins over Harris (i know I'll reap shit for this so you don't have to tell me why I'm wrong), Morris or Beasley = Teague talentwise from what I can tell (could be Denver's guys all the way but I have confidence in Teagues ability in spite of his challenges here the last 2 years) finally of Denver bench over our unproven pile of scraps. Yes Denver is more talented as a whole, but I do think that with a great system and improved play from our starters the gap isn't insane. The huge difference I see isn't basketball talent apart from them having Milsap, it is how Denver plays within their system and Jokic and his ability to elevate players is a huge part of that from what I see.

Q12543 wrote:The bottom line is the Wolves have been a top 12 NBA offense since KAT was a rookie with subpar talent except for the Jimmy year (we were 4th in offense that season because KAT finally had a competent peer on the team).

Whether he makes other people better or not can be argued, but he by himself makes an entire offense better even if he's the one making the shots. He and Jokic are both great players. They just achieve their excellence in different ways.

I do think the offense this season will put KAT in more of a position to set up other guys, but whether they are capable of actually finishing plays/making open shots is seriously in doubt.

Fair point. My gut wants to say Towns is a better defender but the defensive "stats" point to Jokic having the advantage. Maybe Jokic has some magical defensive ability that he doesn't get credit for.

monsterpile wrote:One thing I was thinking about this morning during my daily Wiggins meditation time is that I think at this point Towns still believes in Wiggins based on a number of comments he has made. Maybe he really doesn't but I tend to think he still does. What happens if/(Likely)when that changes?

I think KAT, and the rest of planet earth know by now that Wiggins doesn't respond to negative feedback. My guess is KAT is trying to show support so Wiggins would maybe, possibly, but unlikely, feel confidence and show dedication and make that big jump.

As for what happens when it changes, I don't think it will, at least not outwardly. KAT seems like a good guy who isn't likely to badmouth anyone... unless they banged his GF, and even then he might not.

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The bottom line is the Wolves have been a top 12 NBA offense since KAT was a rookie with subpar talent except for the Jimmy year (we were 4th in offense that season because KAT finally had a competent peer on the team).

Whether he makes other people better or not can be argued, but he by himself makes an entire offense better even if he's the one making the shots. He and Jokic are both great players. They just achieve their excellence in different ways.

I do think the offense this season will put KAT in more of a position to set up other guys, but whether they are capable of actually finishing plays/making open shots is seriously in doubt.

Fair point. My gut wants to say Towns is a better defender but the defensive "stats" point to Jokic having the advantage. Maybe Jokic has some magical defensive ability that he doesn't get credit for.

He can barely jump so he never jumps himself out of a play hunting a block and giving up an easy bucket on the rebound if the shot misses because he's out of position. Keeping your position and just getting your hands up when you are 7ft tall is usually enough to bother the shot and still be able to fight for the rebound.

thedoper wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The bottom line is the Wolves have been a top 12 NBA offense since KAT was a rookie with subpar talent except for the Jimmy year (we were 4th in offense that season because KAT finally had a competent peer on the team).

Whether he makes other people better or not can be argued, but he by himself makes an entire offense better even if he's the one making the shots. He and Jokic are both great players. They just achieve their excellence in different ways.

I do think the offense this season will put KAT in more of a position to set up other guys, but whether they are capable of actually finishing plays/making open shots is seriously in doubt.

Fair point. My gut wants to say Towns is a better defender but the defensive "stats" point to Jokic having the advantage. Maybe Jokic has some magical defensive ability that he doesn't get credit for.

I actually agree with Khansy on this one and would give Jokic the edge in defense (although I don't think he's a game changer defensively). KAT is too jumpy and arms-y, whereas traditional bigs like Jokic, Gasol, and the Lopez Bros. have sort of mastered the positional wall-up style of defense. All those guys have stronger bases than KAT too, so they are less easily moved around in the paint.

As for Denver, keep in mind they went from #25 in team defense in 17-18 to #10 last season - a jump of 15 spots. The biggest difference in my opinion? A (relatively speaking) healthy Paul Milsap. The season before that they were #29 in team defense, when Milsap wasn't on the roster.

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Even supposedly good shooters come to Minnesota and suck. I'm sure Morris and Beasley would ride the pine here too, only because they wouldn't be getting good shots. Be it our system, personnel, or the stars that dominate the ball we are able to take anyone and make them a worse shooter.

I think there is a tangible positive effect that Jokic has on his teammates numbers. Jokic is a great screen setter, this is a weakness for Towns. Jokic is also an amazing passer even when he isn't registering an assist. This is a part of his game that Towns has yet to excel at either because of lack of opportunity or lack of ability. I think screen setting alone is one way that Jokic makes his teammates better on the offensive side of the floor.

Jokic doesn't have Towns ability to score, but he is much easier to play with and lifts the games of his teammates. I don't really see how this can be argued against.

I hope everyone on our team improves. Wiggins, Towns, Dieng, all of them. Because development is the only way this team will ever compete for anything.The real problem of this team since KG has been our utter lack of ability to develop anyone to exceed expectations. We've had some players who have met expectations to a point (Towns and Love), but I can't remember a diamond in the rough who we've seen really blossom into something greater than the expectations for them in our system. Every other relevant team, (Denver included) seems to have that. Right now Towns is meeting everyone's expectations (albeit barely) so they'd rather talk about players (Wiggins) who have preformed below expectations regardless of whether those expectations were ever realistic. The reality is that everyone on this team has lots of room for improvement. I'm personally optimistic about our talent in a vacuum. I don't think we're that far off from Denver in that aspect. What I'm very skeptical on is our ability to mold that talent, which is where I've seen us get burned for decades on.

Whew, the bold text is a doozy. I'm looking at the rosters side-by-side and it's really not even close. Care to expound this point or should we all ignore it and trudge on? Minnesota has a pretty bare cupboard right now and Denver has an embarrassment of riches.

I think in the margins (bench depth) they're better and at the 4 it's not even close. But if for instance Okogie (not too confident in this) or Culver become players we could close the gap further. On talent alone (like if I were picking 5 to win at pickup) with good health I take Jokic over Towns (barely), Milsap over anyone, Roco over Murray (I know you like Murray, I'm not crazy about him and I love what Roco brings to a team), Wiggins over Harris (i know I'll reap shit for this so you don't have to tell me why I'm wrong), Morris or Beasley = Teague talentwise from what I can tell (could be Denver's guys all the way but I have confidence in Teagues ability in spite of his challenges here the last 2 years) finally of Denver bench over our unproven pile of scraps. Yes Denver is more talented as a whole, but I do think that with a great system and improved play from our starters the gap isn't insane. The huge difference I see isn't basketball talent apart from them having Milsap, it is how Denver plays within their system and Jokic and his ability to elevate players is a huge part of that from what I see.

One other note to show the vast disparity between the two (while trying to ignore the Wiggins/Harris comment)... is that while we can hope that the Wolves players will improve...

Couldn't the same be said for the Nuggets?

Murray is only 22.
Beasley is 23.
Morris is 24.
Harris is 25.
Jokic is 24.

It's very likely all those guys will continue to improve, especially as they play in competitive, meaningful regular season games and playoff series... vs... Wolves playing out the string.