Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:You don't need good perimeter shooters at all five starting positions to be successful in today's NBA. Right now, the Wolves have big-time shooters/scorers at three of the five starting positions in Towns, DLO and Beasley. One of those three, Towns, is a 40% 3-point shooter at the C or PF position. KAT is unique as the most offensively gifted big in the League. That gives the Wolves the luxury of pairing KAT with a defensive, shot-blocking big. That's what the Wolves should do and that's why I see Wiseman as a potentially good fit next to KAT.

Having said that, I agree with those who say that Rosas and Ryan have demonstrated that they have no intention of playing a defensive big next to KAT. I think they are stubbornly wrong-headed in that regard, but that's the reality from last season and I'm not counting on them changing. So unless Rosas and Flip change their approach, this franchise won't get much beyond the 7th or 8th seed because to build a championship caliber team around KAT requires pairing him with a defensive, shot-blocking center. I still think KAT can improve defensively, but at this point I only see him improving at the margins.

I agree that they've shown no inclination to, I just do think it is the wrong approach.

As you're one of few who are not against the two tower method, I ask you this:

Would you offer Indiana our top pick, the 33rd, and James Johnson for Myles Turner?

He would be absolutely perfect next to KAT.

Future - You and I have the same perspective on this. If I were Rosas, I'd do the deal you suggested. Turner is not he physical inside presence I'd ideally want and he's a subpar rebounder for his size and position. However, he's a bona fide shot-blocker who could significantly bolster our inside defense with his mobility and rim protection. And he's also the someone Rosas and company might be interested in because he has SF mobility and a decent shot with 3-point range. So I think you've put your finger on a potentially realistic deal as well as a good one for the Wolves.

Our top pick AND 33 for Turner (who I suggested earlier as an option) Plus having to pay him (even if you think his salary is reasonable) seems like too much. I value 33 in any draft but this one it might have even more value. It might be more of a crap shot but it may have some more chance of getting you a good player because this draft is so wonky. It's basically a low 1st round pick with a dirt cheap salary. The Wolves NEED to add players like that with their cap situation Heck James Johnson has some value in this deal as well especially to the Pacers who would Likely want a guy that can play. Our top pick and James Johnson the most I would give up for Turner. I'd take my chances of getting a Myles Turner level player with 2 draft picks and save a bunch of cap space the next few years in doing so.

FWIW thinking about picking Wiseman made me think the Wolves should feel some pressure to make some moves to be able to win some more games sooner than later so Towns doesn't decide to leave. I also don't think they should make moves scared of that scenario. If Towns wants out then extract a King's ransome and Build around whatever you have. That's too easy for me to say and also too easy to actually play out but that's how I see it.

Monster - You make a good point about the value of the 33rd pick. You also make a good point about Turner's contract and the Wolves' need to manage their cap space given the big salaries they have on the books in KAT, DLO, and probably Beasley. I actually think that our top pick plus James Johnson without including #33 would be a fair offer. A lot depends on who's available. If the Wolves are convinced that a franchise player (maybe Ball) is available when on the clock with their top pick, then they shouldn't trade that pick for Turner or anyone else. Similarly, if they're convinced they will get someone are good or better than Turner at #33, then they shouldn't offer that pick for Turner. But Turner is a proven NBA talent who would provide much-needed rim protection this team doesn't currently have. So Future's idea is tempting.

Think about it this way. The Wolves would be paying likely at least 10 million more a year for Turner than the 1st round pick. What kind of mid-level FA could you also sign with that money that you probably aren't getting if you add Turner for the season a year from now. Also worth considering is the salary cap may go down so that would make Turner's salary less reasonable. Where the cap lands is going to make a deal for Beasley REALLY interesting. How will Rosas navigate that? If Beasley is willing to bet on himself a 1 year deal with a player option might be his best bet. If I was the Wolves I think I would be open to that kind of move Assuming the price was low like ai would expect it to be. If Beasley plays well and opts out for a big deal and is worth it fine tell Glen to pay the Lux tax if you need to to keep him. It does seem like with a strange unprecedented time coming this front office has people that seem likely to actually have done the research into the numbers and what to do and actually implement what they know. Will they make the right Basketball decisions? Idk but I have some actual faith in their ability to make produce worthwhile analytical Projections about contract values etc. that hasn't been a strength of the organization although I think Flip did a better job on contracts he gave players than people tend to remember he did.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

TheFuture wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:You don't need good perimeter shooters at all five starting positions to be successful in today's NBA. Right now, the Wolves have big-time shooters/scorers at three of the five starting positions in Towns, DLO and Beasley. One of those three, Towns, is a 40% 3-point shooter at the C or PF position. KAT is unique as the most offensively gifted big in the League. That gives the Wolves the luxury of pairing KAT with a defensive, shot-blocking big. That's what the Wolves should do and that's why I see Wiseman as a potentially good fit next to KAT.

Having said that, I agree with those who say that Rosas and Ryan have demonstrated that they have no intention of playing a defensive big next to KAT. I think they are stubbornly wrong-headed in that regard, but that's the reality from last season and I'm not counting on them changing. So unless Rosas and Flip change their approach, this franchise won't get much beyond the 7th or 8th seed because to build a championship caliber team around KAT requires pairing him with a defensive, shot-blocking center. I still think KAT can improve defensively, but at this point I only see him improving at the margins.

I agree that they've shown no inclination to, I just do think it is the wrong approach.

As you're one of few who are not against the two tower method, I ask you this:

Would you offer Indiana our top pick, the 33rd, and James Johnson for Myles Turner?

He would be absolutely perfect next to KAT.

Future - You and I have the same perspective on this. If I were Rosas, I'd do the deal you suggested. Turner is not he physical inside presence I'd ideally want and he's a subpar rebounder for his size and position. However, he's a bona fide shot-blocker who could significantly bolster our inside defense with his mobility and rim protection. And he's also the someone Rosas and company might be interested in because he has SF mobility and a decent shot with 3-point range. So I think you've put your finger on a potentially realistic deal as well as a good one for the Wolves.

Our top pick AND 33 for Turner (who I suggested earlier as an option) Plus having to pay him (even if you think his salary is reasonable) seems like too much. I value 33 in any draft but this one it might have even more value. It might be more of a crap shot but it may have some more chance of getting you a good player because this draft is so wonky. It's basically a low 1st round pick with a dirt cheap salary. The Wolves NEED to add players like that with their cap situation Heck James Johnson has some value in this deal as well especially to the Pacers who would Likely want a guy that can play. Our top pick and James Johnson the most I would give up for Turner. I'd take my chances of getting a Myles Turner level player with 2 draft picks and save a bunch of cap space the next few years in doing so.

FWIW thinking about picking Wiseman made me think the Wolves should feel some pressure to make some moves to be able to win some more games sooner than later so Towns doesn't decide to leave. I also don't think they should make moves scared of that scenario. If Towns wants out then extract a King's ransome and Build around whatever you have. That's too easy for me to say and also too easy to actually play out but that's how I see it.

Monster - You make a good point about the value of the 33rd pick. You also make a good point about Turner's contract and the Wolves' need to manage their cap space given the big salaries they have on the books in KAT, DLO, and probably Beasley. I actually think that our top pick plus James Johnson without including #33 would be a fair offer. A lot depends on who's available. If the Wolves are convinced that a franchise player (maybe Ball) is available when on the clock with their top pick, then they shouldn't trade that pick for Turner or anyone else. Similarly, if they're convinced they will get someone are good or better than Turner at #33, then they shouldn't offer that pick for Turner. But Turner is a proven NBA talent who would provide much-needed rim protection this team doesn't currently have. So Future's idea is tempting.

Think about it this way. The Wolves would be paying likely at least 10 million more a year for Turner than the 1st round pick. What kind of mid-level FA could you also sign with that money that you probably aren't getting if you add Turner for the season a year from now. Also worth considering is the salary cap may go down so that would make Turner's salary less reasonable. Where the cap lands is going to make a deal for Beasley REALLY interesting. How will Rosas navigate that? If Beasley is willing to bet on himself a 1 year deal with a player option might be his best bet. If I was the Wolves I think I would be open to that kind of move Assuming the price was low like ai would expect it to be. If Beasley plays well and opts out for a big deal and is worth it fine tell Glen to pay the Lux tax if you need to to keep him. It does seem like with a strange unprecedented time coming this front office has people that seem likely to actually have done the research into the numbers and what to do and actually implement what they know. Will they make the right Basketball decisions? Idk but I have some actual faith in their ability to make produce worthwhile analytical Projections about contract values etc. that hasn't been a strength of the organization although I think Flip did a better job on contracts he gave players than people tend to remember he did.

My thing with adding Turner or any big man is that are we going to get any better defensivley with Kat guarding the small ball PF. I mean look at the west who is Kat going to guard. Clippers: George, Lakers: LBJ, Thunder: Gallo, Utah: Bogdonvic. Rockets: Cov, Nuggets: Millsap, Mavs: Dorian Finny Smith. Wolves would do fine against the Blazers when Collins gets back or the Mavs playing JJJ at the 4. So Kat will be guarding perimeter players that can all shoot and most of them can put the ball on the ground blow by Kat possession after possession. Now you might say Kat will destroy on the other end but the problem is that teams can still put their big man on KAT, while putting their smaller PF on Turner. I think teams will be perfectly fine having the wolves have Turner post up possession after possession where the small guy can bang in the post and shots won't be coming to KAT and DLo. Teams will live with Turner trying to beat them.

In the end if we aren't adding Embiid, Jokic or Gobert (Gobert makes a gigantic difference on defense) I don't think it is right at all to add another big with our 1st round asset. In the end it is up to KAT to get better at defense if he doesn't the wolves cap out at a bottom tier playoff team.

I also want to say Im not opposed to playing 2 bigs at times, I actually think it is really smart but as our end game lineup game after game I think the wolves would see way to many negatives compared to positives.

Im bored at work and have talked about trading the wolves 1st 1st round pick a lot. So here is what I am thinking for possible trade suitors for that pick.

Lakers: No realistic trade
Clippers: I would say Harrell but he is a FA
Nuggets: Micheal Porter JR (think it is mostly unrealistic)
Jazz: Rudy Gobert (only put him on because of the friction of Mitchell and Gobert)
Thunder: Nothing realistic with Gallo being a free agent
Rockets: Cov and Gordon (Not likely with Rockets all in and Gordon with a no-trade)
Mavs: Dorian Finny Smith and Seth Curry
Grizzlies: Dillon Brooks
Blazers: McCollum (Unlikely), Simmons, Trent, Little combo
Pelicans: Derrick Favors and Nickiel Alexander
Kings: Buddy Hield
Spurs: Lamarcus Aldridge
Suns: Oubre Jr.
Warriors: No realistic trade

Bucks: No realistic trade
Raptors: OG or Powell
Celtics: Marcus Smart
Heat: Robinson and Nunn
Pacers: No realistic trade (Maybe Turner)
76ers: Harris and Thybulle (Would have to include James Johnson)
Nets: Levert or Dinwiddie
Magic: Gordon or Isaac (Don't think Issac is realistic).
Wizards: Bertans
Hornets: Nothing realistic
Bulls: Porter Jr is a free agent. Young and Sateronsky
Knicks: Nothing realistic
Pistons: Take a gigantic risk on Griffin
Cavs: Nothing realistic
Hawks: Nothing Realistic

I trade both 1st rounders with Culver and Okogie if it gets me Gobert

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - I hadn't thought of the comparison between Oturu and Sabonis. That's interesting. I'll have to give that some thought. I was really high on Sabonis coming out of college. He was so fundamentally sound and had a great feel for the game. He impressed me more than Oturu in the eye test.

If I were intent on taking a big with the Wolves top pick this year, I'd probably take either Wiseman or Okongwu. I see both as the best defensive bigs in the draft and interior defense is such a glaring need for this team moving forward with KAT as one of our core stars. I also like that Wiseman and Okongwu can score inside, which means they can post up with Town taking his man out side to the 3-point line. If the NBA has a draft combine this year, I'll be interested in seeing Okongwu's overhead reach and vertical to get a better sense of his shot-blocking and overall defensive potential in the paint.

Tell me more about why you like Okongwu.

Monster - I've been watching a lot of video of Okongwu and others - the only way I can get my hoops fix now that the "Last Dance" is over. I wanted to tell you why I like Okongwu.

First, I start with his college stats, which is where I always start with my evaluation of draft prospects. He averaged 8.6 rebounds and 2.7 blocks. Those are excellent stats for a freshman in key areas that have particular importance for a big man. I also like his 5.1 free throw attempts per game. That shows aggressiveness on the offense end and a knack for drawing fouls. He has a respectable 72% free throw percentage to go along with his impressive 5.1 FT attempts, but I think he can improve even more in that area. He's clearly not a poor free throw shooter. I also liked his over 61% FG percentage. That's the sort of stat you want to see in a college big to project him as a good interior scorer in the NBA.

Second, on video he looks very quick and fluid with superb hops. He reminds me a lot of John Collins. He seems to have the same level of quickness and fluidity as John with essentially the same length, but he's 25 pounds heavier than Collins. That's impressive and bodes well for the NBA.

Third, I like that all the reports on him highlight a great motor and competitiveness.

Onyeka Okongwu is a super solid prospect and a relatively "safe" pick for anyone needing frontcourt help in the top-10. I wish he had more upside offensively, though. That's likely why I have several others I'd take before him, but he reminds me of Tristan Thompson and Taj Gibson. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Camden wrote:Onyeka Okongwu is a super solid prospect and a relatively "safe" pick for anyone needing frontcourt help in the top-10. I wish he had more upside offensively, though. That's likely why I have several others I'd take before him, but he reminds me of Tristan Thompson and Taj Gibson. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Cam - Your Gibson and Thompson comparisons are good ones, although I think Okongwu has better hops than Gibson and is more fluid and a bit quicker than Thompson. But I could be wrong about that.

Who are the prospects you'd take over Okongwu?

I still haven't figured out exactly where I'd put Okongwu on my draft board. Wiseman scares me because of reports questioning his motor. I've also noticed in videos a lack of fluidity and lateral quickness that concern me as well. So I have Okongwu ahead of Wiseman on my board even though Wiseman has the higher ceiling. Actually, I'd be inclined not to include Wiseman on my Board as a potential Wolves' pick. Any questions about motor, effort or intensity are huge red flags for me, especially as applied to the Wolves who currently don't have a KG-type on the team to raise the intensity level for the whole team.

I had my doubts Edwards because of his 3-point percentage. But after watching a lot more video of him and reading more analysis, I now have him pretty firmly established as my top pick and I'd want the Wolves to draft him if they get the #1 pick. He reminds me of Donovan Mitchell, only slightly bigger/stronger.

The more I watch and read, the more I like both Killian Hayes and Tyrese Haliburton. I love Toppin as a prospect on the offensive end, but he looks pretty bad defensively and I think he's be a bad fit next to KAT for that reason. So while I"m inclined to rank him at #2 on my draft board, I'm not sure I'd want the Wolves to take him if he's available.

Right now, I'm actually thinking about Haliburton as #3 behind Toppin on my draft board. But I'm not sure he'd be a good fit for the Wolves with DLO. It depends on whether the Wolves are looking for fit or BPA. If looking for the BPA, I'd be inclined to take Haliburton over anyone except Edwards for the Wolves even though I have Toppin rated slightly higher as a more dominant offensive force at the next level. I like Halliburton's complete game on both sides of the ball. Tyrese checks all the boxes statistically with 2.5 steals, 6 rebounds and 6.5 assists per game, while also hitting over 50% of his field goal attempts and 42% of his threes. Those are all elite numbers for a college player, especially a sophomore. He has a freakishly long 7'0 wingspan like Okogie, but is taller and, therefore, likely has a better overhead reach than Josh. And he is, obviously, far more skilled than Okogie. Tyrese is a PG with the wingspan of a PF. Finally, watching him on video, you can see that he has elite court vision, an excellent handle and a great feel for the game/high basketball IQ. And he's at least a good athlete if not an excellent one.

I'd slot LaMello in at #4 behind Edwards, Toppin and Haliburton. LaMello has as much upside as anyone in the draft, but there's something about him that makes me fear he has more bust potential than the guys I have rated above him. I'd slot Killian Hayes in at #5 and finally Okongwu at #6.

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Onyeka Okongwu is a super solid prospect and a relatively "safe" pick for anyone needing frontcourt help in the top-10. I wish he had more upside offensively, though. That's likely why I have several others I'd take before him, but he reminds me of Tristan Thompson and Taj Gibson. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Cam - Your Gibson and Thompson comparisons are good ones, although I think Okongwu has better hops than Gibson and is more fluid and a bit quicker than Thompson. But I could be wrong about that.

Who are the prospects you'd take over Okongwu?

I still haven't figured out exactly where I'd put Okongwu on my draft board. Wiseman scares me because of reports questioning his motor. I've also noticed in videos a lack of fluidity and lateral quickness that concern me as well. So I have Okongwu ahead of Wiseman on my board even though Wiseman has the higher ceiling. Actually, I'd be inclined not to include Wiseman on my Board as a potential Wolves' pick. Any questions about motor, effort or intensity are huge red flags for me, especially as applied to the Wolves who currently don't have a KG-type on the team to raise the intensity level for the whole team.

I had my doubts Edwards because of his 3-point percentage. But after watching a lot more video of him and reading more analysis, I now have him pretty firmly established as my top pick and I'd want the Wolves to draft him if they get the #1 pick. He reminds me of Donovan Mitchell, only slightly bigger/stronger.

The more I watch and read, the more I like both Killian Hayes and Tyrese Haliburton. I love Toppin as a prospect on the offensive end, but he looks pretty bad defensively and I think he's be a bad fit next to KAT for that reason. So while I"m inclined to rank him at #2 on my draft board, I'm not sure I'd want the Wolves to take him if he's available.

Right now, I'm actually thinking about Haliburton as #3 behind Toppin on my draft board. But I'm not sure he'd be a good fit for the Wolves with DLO. It depends on whether the Wolves are looking for fit or BPA. If looking for the BPA, I'd be inclined to take Haliburton over anyone except Edwards for the Wolves even though I have Toppin rated slightly higher as a more dominant offensive force at the next level. I like Halliburton's complete game on both sides of the ball. Tyrese checks all the boxes statistically with 2.5 steals, 6 rebounds and 6.5 assists per game, while also hitting over 50% of his field goal attempts and 42% of his threes. Those are all elite numbers for a college player, especially a sophomore. He has a freakishly long 7'0 wingspan like Okogie, but is taller and, therefore, likely has a better overhead reach than Josh. And he is, obviously, far more skilled than Okogie. Tyrese is a PG with the wingspan of a PF. Finally, watching him on video, you can see that he has elite court vision, an excellent handle and a great feel for the game/high basketball IQ. And he's at least a good athlete if not an excellent one.

I'd slot LaMello in at #4 behind Edwards, Toppin and Haliburton. LaMello has as much upside as anyone in the draft, but there's something about him that makes me fear he has more bust potential than the guys I have rated above him. I'd slot Killian Hayes in at #5 and finally Okongwu at #6.

Thanks for all this Lip and I'm also curious what Cam has to say. I think Lip's take on Wiseman is the most interesting thing I have read on this boards in months...ok it's probably days but who knows. Lol just kidding Lip but it is going to be interesting to see how Wiseman is evaluated. I read one mock draft a few day's ago that seemed to be completely clueless about what teams were looking for. They thought the Wolves would pick Wiseman and move Towns to PF. We have discussed that it's unlikely the Wolves are going to be interested in doing such a thing whether it's the right thing to do or not.

Okongwu as bouncy as John Collins but plays D? Um...maybe I'm sold on him already. Lol It's been a while since I watched some highlights maybe I gotta go back and watch. :)

In February when I was watching a bunch of college basketball games it was disappointing that Haliburton was injured. I always like watching Iowa State and the game was fun to watch for the first few minutes...but ai believe it ended up getting g out of hand. Haliburton seems based on what I've read like he is a really nice complimentary player and that's not exactly a knock. If he was sort of a Rubio type impact that could actually shoot he wouldn't be a star but damn that would be a ice thing to have next to Russell or when he was off the floor or...yeah.

Ball is still THE guy I would take a chance on in this draft. I do think there is busy potential with him but I also can't decide if that's a legit BS meter or if it's because of his whole history and he played in other leagues etc etc. I think this draft would be great if you could actually keep more players on the roster like other sports. Take a Patriots and or even Vikings Spielman approach of taking a bunch of shots at guys. This draft is gonna he wonky. That's why I don't really get MLB cutting the draft down to 5 rounds. Cutting it down to 15 or maybe 10 sure but 5?!?! I don't get it. My guess is it changes to a longer draft after The COVID 19 Situation is worked out. Maybe this draft it might make some sense to take a guy you Feel basically certain he will be at worst a high level rotation player and likely solid starter. Take a chance on couple guys lower in the draft maybe even some undrafted guys. We have seen how badly it goes when you just whiff on an entire draft. I'm kinda happy to be sitting in chair at home for this one.

Monster - Haliburton as a Rubio with a jump shot rings true. Actually, I was thinking of describing him as better shooting, more athletic a Rubio. I agree with you that he's more of a complementary player than a lead star you build around. But if he's the caliber 2-way player I think he can be, then he'd be a terrific part of a core with KAT and Russell - assuming he and Russell can co-exist in the same backcourt.

Hard to argue with LaMello's star potential. So I get that you'd take him. My bust projection for him is more a gut feeling than a well thought out analysis. Part of it, though probably unfair, is his father. Another part of it was his decision to bypass college in favor of going to Australia. But there's also his tendency to throw up wild long contested shots. I suggests to me a lazy showman attitude -- someone without a a strong competitive drive who takes the easily quick out by jacking up improbable shots.

Check out some more Okongwu videos. Watch how quickly he gets off the floor, including his second jump. Another big who impresses me is Paul Reed at DePaul. He'll likely be a second round pick. He's another guy whose video highlights remind me of John Collins. And his stats are also impressive, averaging nearly 3 blocks and 2 steals per game.

lipoli390 wrote:Monster - Haliburton as a Rubio with a jump shot rings true. Actually, I was thinking of describing him as better shooting, more athletic a Rubio. I agree with you that he's more of a complementary player than a lead star you build around. But if he's the caliber 2-way player I think he can be, then he'd be a terrific part of a core with KAT and Russell - assuming he and Russell can co-exist in the same backcourt.

Hard to argue with LaMello's star potential. So I get that you'd take him. My bust projection for him is more a gut feeling than a well thought out analysis. Part of it, though probably unfair, is his father. Another part of it was his decision to bypass college in favor of going to Australia. But there's also his tendency to throw up wild long contested shots. I suggests to me a lazy showman attitude -- someone without a a strong competitive drive who takes the easily quick out by jacking up improbable shots.

Check out some more Okongwu videos. Watch how quickly he gets off the floor, including his second jump. Another big who impresses me is Paul Reed at DePaul. He'll likely be a second round pick. He's another guy whose video highlights remind me of John Collins. And his stats are also impressive, averaging nearly 3 blocks and 2 steals per game.

I think it's more difficult to assess whether some guys taking long jumpers is lazy or legit. I mean if we are talking about Wiggns long jumpers just inside the 3 point line...yikes. Lol I'll admit saying Measurements aren't the end all be all hit ai want to see How Ball Measures out. Is he more like a true small SF size or is he only Culver or not even that "big". Some guys measurements and their skills are just a dynamic combination. Luka was obviously pretty big plus he has all those guard skills. Durant is a total freak. If Ball measures out to be like 6'6" without shoes with a 7' wingspan even if he is skinny...that's gonna be tough to pass on for me...depending on how other guys measure out and what else I learn.

Back to those long distance shots here is an interesting article from former South Dakota basketball great Eric Piatkowski (Watched him and his brother play in the State basketball tournaments on TV as a kid) talk about some various things in his career and The quotes I found the most interesting and amusing was how he would fit into the current modern game. Piatkowski is usually a fun guy to listen to talk about his career. Don't be put off by the title of the article. Lol
https://journalstar.com/sports/huskers/sipple/steven-m-sipple-former-husker-sharpshooter-piatkowski-says-he-couldve-handled-mjs-heat/article_501a8d68-be11-52a9-9b71-074026ff6f70.html