Minnesota Sports Forum

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.

23.6/4.2/2.3/1.0 45/36/76 4.2 WS 29 usage

18.9/5.5/1.7/1.2 45/35/77 3.3 WS 25.6 usage

Wiggins was player 1 in this scenario aka higher WS and WS/48 than Gay before his teammates knocked him down the totem pole in year 4. The Vorp and BPM were not huge differences as you say as well. There just isn't this large gap you claim. Gay was a better defender while Wiggins was the better offensive player and the gaps between both sides of the ball are pretty similar.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.

23.6/4.2/2.3/1.0 45/36/76 4.2 WS 29 usage

18.9/5.5/1.7/1.2 45/35/77 3.3 WS 25.6 usage

Wiggins was player 1 in this scenario aka higher WS and WS/48 than Gay before his teammates knocked him down the totem pole in year 4. The Vorp and BPM were not huge differences as you say as well. There just isn't this large gap you claim. Gay was a better defender while Wiggins was the better offensive player and the gaps between both sides of the ball are pretty similar.

That's Year 3 of the comparison. With Wiggins' regression, we know Gay won Year 4.

Hopefully, Wiggins wins Year 5 and beyond. Because if playing with more talented players makes Wiggins a worse player... ooops... I worry about this team's future.

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.

23.6/4.2/2.3/1.0 45/36/76 4.2 WS 29 usage

18.9/5.5/1.7/1.2 45/35/77 3.3 WS 25.6 usage

Wiggins was player 1 in this scenario aka higher WS and WS/48 than Gay before his teammates knocked him down the totem pole in year 4. The Vorp and BPM were not huge differences as you say as well. There just isn't this large gap you claim. Gay was a better defender while Wiggins was the better offensive player and the gaps between both sides of the ball are pretty similar.

That's Year 3 of the comparison. With Wiggins' regression, we know Gay won Year 4.

Hopefully, Wiggins wins Year 5 and beyond. Because if playing with more talented players makes Wiggins a worse player... ooops... I worry about this team's future.

I compared year 3 because Wiggins was put in the backseat in year 4 to Jimmy and to some extent Teague. His role changed so I didn't think that was a fair comparison to Gay who had Conley in his 3rd year, Gasol in year 2, Mayo in year 2 and Randolph in his prime. That's not really comparable to me to Jimmy and Teague in their prime controlling the ball. The same will be true of year 5 for me. There's only one ball and we have 4 starters who want to have it a lot. They were very comparable players when they were top options on their teams. That's all I was saying.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.

23.6/4.2/2.3/1.0 45/36/76 4.2 WS 29 usage

18.9/5.5/1.7/1.2 45/35/77 3.3 WS 25.6 usage

Wiggins was player 1 in this scenario aka higher WS and WS/48 than Gay before his teammates knocked him down the totem pole in year 4. The Vorp and BPM were not huge differences as you say as well. There just isn't this large gap you claim. Gay was a better defender while Wiggins was the better offensive player and the gaps between both sides of the ball are pretty similar.

That's Year 3 of the comparison. With Wiggins' regression, we know Gay won Year 4.

Hopefully, Wiggins wins Year 5 and beyond. Because if playing with more talented players makes Wiggins a worse player... ooops... I worry about this team's future.

I compared year 3 because Wiggins was put in the backseat in year 4 to Jimmy and to some extent Teague. His role changed so I didn't think that was a fair comparison to Gay who had Conley in his 3rd year, Gasol in year 2, Mayo in year 2 and Randolph in his prime. That's not really comparable to me to Jimmy and Teague in their prime controlling the ball. The same will be true of year 5 for me. There's only one ball and we have 4 starters who want to have it a lot. They were very comparable players when they were top options on their teams. That's all I was saying.

Fair enough. I get it.

I'm just saying that I found it alarming that Wiggins became more inefficient when surrounded by better players. As a fan since 1989, I've seen a lot of "good stats guys on bad teams" walk out onto the Target Center floor.

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.

23.6/4.2/2.3/1.0 45/36/76 4.2 WS 29 usage

18.9/5.5/1.7/1.2 45/35/77 3.3 WS 25.6 usage

Wiggins was player 1 in this scenario aka higher WS and WS/48 than Gay before his teammates knocked him down the totem pole in year 4. The Vorp and BPM were not huge differences as you say as well. There just isn't this large gap you claim. Gay was a better defender while Wiggins was the better offensive player and the gaps between both sides of the ball are pretty similar.

That's Year 3 of the comparison. With Wiggins' regression, we know Gay won Year 4.

Hopefully, Wiggins wins Year 5 and beyond. Because if playing with more talented players makes Wiggins a worse player... ooops... I worry about this team's future.

I compared year 3 because Wiggins was put in the backseat in year 4 to Jimmy and to some extent Teague. His role changed so I didn't think that was a fair comparison to Gay who had Conley in his 3rd year, Gasol in year 2, Mayo in year 2 and Randolph in his prime. That's not really comparable to me to Jimmy and Teague in their prime controlling the ball. The same will be true of year 5 for me. There's only one ball and we have 4 starters who want to have it a lot. They were very comparable players when they were top options on their teams. That's all I was saying.

Fair enough. I get it.

I'm just saying that I found it alarming that Wiggins became more inefficient when surrounded by better players. As a fan since 1989, I've seen a lot of "good stats guys on bad teams" walk out onto the Target Center floor.

Did you also see any of those guys on the metrodome floor too?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.

23.6/4.2/2.3/1.0 45/36/76 4.2 WS 29 usage

18.9/5.5/1.7/1.2 45/35/77 3.3 WS 25.6 usage

Wiggins was player 1 in this scenario aka higher WS and WS/48 than Gay before his teammates knocked him down the totem pole in year 4. The Vorp and BPM were not huge differences as you say as well. There just isn't this large gap you claim. Gay was a better defender while Wiggins was the better offensive player and the gaps between both sides of the ball are pretty similar.

That's Year 3 of the comparison. With Wiggins' regression, we know Gay won Year 4.

Hopefully, Wiggins wins Year 5 and beyond. Because if playing with more talented players makes Wiggins a worse player... ooops... I worry about this team's future.

I compared year 3 because Wiggins was put in the backseat in year 4 to Jimmy and to some extent Teague. His role changed so I didn't think that was a fair comparison to Gay who had Conley in his 3rd year, Gasol in year 2, Mayo in year 2 and Randolph in his prime. That's not really comparable to me to Jimmy and Teague in their prime controlling the ball. The same will be true of year 5 for me. There's only one ball and we have 4 starters who want to have it a lot. They were very comparable players when they were top options on their teams. That's all I was saying.

Fair enough. I get it.

I'm just saying that I found it alarming that Wiggins became more inefficient when surrounded by better players. As a fan since 1989, I've seen a lot of "good stats guys on bad teams" walk out onto the Target Center floor.

Did you also see any of those guys on the metrodome floor too?

They get a pass. They were overachieving hustlers... or so we were told.

To be fair, there might be some truth to that considering Musselman was fired for winning too much... which turned out to be highly ironic for this franchise.



[Edit: Actually, wouldn't Tony Campbell qualify perfectly here? Averaged 21+ ppg for losing teams in MN... Never over 11 ppg anywhere else.]

khans2k5 wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.

23.6/4.2/2.3/1.0 45/36/76 4.2 WS 29 usage

18.9/5.5/1.7/1.2 45/35/77 3.3 WS 25.6 usage

Wiggins was player 1 in this scenario aka higher WS and WS/48 than Gay before his teammates knocked him down the totem pole in year 4. The Vorp and BPM were not huge differences as you say as well. There just isn't this large gap you claim. Gay was a better defender while Wiggins was the better offensive player and the gaps between both sides of the ball are pretty similar.