Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:A couple things I've been considering today:

1. Something in all these reports doesn't seem quite right. Note this is the Thibs and Layden era where very little leaks out from their side. It's worth considering where these reports are coming from...not the Wolves. That is worth considering. I'm certainly not suggesting verything is fine or good or Thins and Layden and Glen are all doing great hanging out and doing Yoga together while working thephones but something just seems off. I have some homeristic hope that somehow something magical happens and things turn around here with Thibs still coaching. I'm not really bettting on it or really hoping for it except I'm sort of an optimistic person about things.

2. We are all smart people here and come from various walks of life with various legit forms of expertise or just solid sense. However I think sometimes we overestimate our knowledge of situations surrounding how these deals come together. I'm guilty as anyone. Shams says "these trades for star players take weeks to get worked out.." weeks? What?!? I mean I get it but I honestly don't. That being said I have to realize Shams does know more about this than I do. That doesn't mean my outside perspective or opinion or anyone Kara here doesn't have value. I all can agree that sometimes people's different perspectives (including fans like us somewhat outside the situation) can enlighten the conversation.

I guess what I am saying is maybe we should be asking more questions about what we don't know and in some cases maybe be careful about getting caught up in every report (mostly rumored trades although it's kinda fun). I'm saying this to myself as much as anyone.

Also one last thing people keep saying Thibs is doing things to save his job. You know how he can save his job? Make a great trade both for now and the future which could be enough to make this team pretty good and get into the playoffs and do a lot of the things we have been hoping for. There is a chance he can do just that. Again I'm not betting on this but the trade a lot of people want is exactly how Thibs could save his job.

I hear what you're saying, Monster, but I think you're reaching a bit.

Reports of the disconnect between Thibodeau and Taylor on dealing Butler, at least initially, didn't have to come from the Wolves to be credible or true. The reports from other teams of confusion, not getting responses from the Wolves front office, and being told by Taylor to contact him directly if they don't get anywhere with the front office are unusual. The reports, coming from multiple teams through trusted reporters like Jon K and Woj don't seem fabricated.

Jon K's report about Butler not flying back with the team and telling Thibodeau months ago of his desire to be elsewhere probably did come from someone in the Wolves organization. But regardless of where those reports came from, they're actually validated now by the fact that Jimmy is demanding a trade. Those reports are also consistent with earlier reports this summer of Butler expressing his disdain for Towns and Wiggins. Thibodeau mentioned earlier this summer that he was in regular communication with Butler, which further suggests he should have know where Jimmy's Head was at. Jimmy's not one to hold back. Thibodeau probably blew it off because he didn't want to believe it. He likely figured the team would play, win games and Butler's attitude would change. He assumed human emotions and personalities wouldn't get in the way. That's what you'd expect from a head coach who never pats a player on the back. But that's not the way the world works. Organizations, including basketball teams (especially basketball teams) are all about personalities, egos, emotions and relationships. Even winning championships couldn't keep Shaq from leaving the Lakers to get away from Kobe. Thibodeau is an impersonal one-dimensional thinker who doesn't dwell in the world of relationships. That's why he so ill-suited to being a head coach, especially in today's NBA. And it's part of what ultimately led to his failure as PBO to address this situation before it became another tragic Wolves drama.

The situation is bad, but there's no point denying it. This isn't all that complicated. Thibodeau came here to coach what he called the "best young roster in the NBA" but failed to do any better than Sam Mitchell did with the same group even those the group he inherited was obviously more experienced than they were under Sam. So Thibodeau then set out to remake the roster in his image with Butler, Taj and Teague. The makeover worked, helping the team win 16 more games and make the playoffs. The deal had risks -- Jimmy's history of missing games with injuries and alienating teammates and the fact he had only 2 years left on his contract before he could opt out. But as last season progressed, Thibodeau was apparently unable (likely unwilling) to manage relationships on the team or rein in Jimmy Butler. After the season it seems that Thibodeau was unwilling to accept the possibility that Butler might not fit well long term or that he might seek to leave -- even when Jimmy was expressing those sentiments.

If we can't agree that Thibodeau is pathologically stubborn than we can't agree the earth is round. What we're seeing unfold before our eyes and the related reports all line up with the Thibodeau we're all seen in plain view. So here we are. It's not good, but it is definitely Thibs and it shouldn't be all that surprising.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:A couple things I've been considering today:

1. Something in all these reports doesn't seem quite right. Note this is the Thibs and Layden era where very little leaks out from their side. It's worth considering where these reports are coming from...not the Wolves. That is worth considering. I'm certainly not suggesting verything is fine or good or Thins and Layden and Glen are all doing great hanging out and doing Yoga together while working thephones but something just seems off. I have some homeristic hope that somehow something magical happens and things turn around here with Thibs still coaching. I'm not really bettting on it or really hoping for it except I'm sort of an optimistic person about things.

2. We are all smart people here and come from various walks of life with various legit forms of expertise or just solid sense. However I think sometimes we overestimate our knowledge of situations surrounding how these deals come together. I'm guilty as anyone. Shams says "these trades for star players take weeks to get worked out.." weeks? What?!? I mean I get it but I honestly don't. That being said I have to realize Shams does know more about this than I do. That doesn't mean my outside perspective or opinion or anyone Kara here doesn't have value. I all can agree that sometimes people's different perspectives (including fans like us somewhat outside the situation) can enlighten the conversation.

I guess what I am saying is maybe we should be asking more questions about what we don't know and in some cases maybe be careful about getting caught up in every report (mostly rumored trades although it's kinda fun). I'm saying this to myself as much as anyone.

Also one last thing people keep saying Thibs is doing things to save his job. You know how he can save his job? Make a great trade both for now and the future which could be enough to make this team pretty good and get into the playoffs and do a lot of the things we have been hoping for. There is a chance he can do just that. Again I'm not betting on this but the trade a lot of people want is exactly how Thibs could save his job.

I hear what you're saying, Monster, but I think you're reaching a bit.

Reports of the disconnect between Thibodeau and Taylor on dealing Butler, at least initially, didn't have to come from the Wolves to be credible or true. The reports from other teams of confusion, not getting responses from the Wolves front office, and being told by Taylor to contact him directly if they don't get anywhere with the front office are unusual. The reports, coming from multiple teams through trusted reporters like Jon K and Woj don't seem fabricated.

Jon K's report about Butler not flying back with the team and telling Thibodeau months ago of his desire to be elsewhere probably did come from someone in the Wolves organization. But regardless of where those reports came from, they're actually validated now by the fact that Jimmy is demanding a trade. Those reports are also consistent with earlier reports this summer of Butler expressing his disdain for Towns and Wiggins. Thibodeau mentioned earlier this summer that he was in regular communication with Butler, which further suggests he should have know where Jimmy's Head was at. Jimmy's not one to hold back. Thibodeau probably blew it off because he didn't want to believe it. He likely figured the team would play, win games and Butler's attitude would change. He assumed human emotions and personalities wouldn't get in the way. That's what you'd expect from a head coach who never pats a player on the back. But that's not the way the world works. Organizations, including basketball teams (especially basketball teams) are all about personalities, egos, emotions and relationships. Even winning championships couldn't keep Shaq from leaving the Lakers to get away from Kobe. Thibodeau is an impersonal one-dimensional thinker who doesn't dwell in the world of relationships. That's why he so ill-suited to being a head coach, especially in today's NBA. And it's part of what ultimately led to his failure as PBO to address this situation before it became another tragic Wolves drama.

The situation is bad, but there's no point denying it. This isn't all that complicated. Thibodeau came here to coach what he called the "best young roster in the NBA" but failed to do any better than Sam Mitchell did with the same group even those the group he inherited was obviously more experienced than they were under Sam. So Thibodeau then set out to remake the roster in his image with Butler, Taj and Teague. The makeover worked, helping the team win 16 more games and make the playoffs. The deal had risks -- Jimmy's history of missing games with injuries and alienating teammates and the fact he had only 2 years left on his contract before he could opt out. But as last season progressed, Thibodeau was apparently unable (likely unwilling) to manage relationships on the team or rein in Jimmy Butler. After the season it seems that Thibodeau was unwilling to accept the possibility that Butler might not fit well long term or that he might seek to leave -- even when Jimmy was expressing those sentiments.

If we can't agree that Thibodeau is pathologically stubborn than we can't agree the earth is round. What we're seeing unfold before our eyes and the related reports all line up with the Thibodeau we're all seen in plain view. So here we are. It's not good, but it is definitely Thibs and it shouldn't be all that surprising.

First of all:

"than we can't agree the earth is round."

It's a good thing we didn't trade for Kyrie or be in a position to draft Lonnie Walker! lol :)

Lip I just feel there is some missing information or something that doesn't add up. I'm not suggesting this missing piece or whatever it is helps or hurts any particular narrative. Maybe it's something that's absolutely damning to one or maybe all parties Butler Thibs and Glen. Idk. I'm just looking for truth which as Flip said it can't be controversial. We may never have enough info for a clear picture of what went down the last few months. I'm personally unsatified with what I know to make a complete assessment on this situation. It just feels like there is something again IDK what but something. And no, I don't think the missing info has anything to do with a woman.

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:A couple things I've been considering today:

1. Something in all these reports doesn't seem quite right. Note this is the Thibs and Layden era where very little leaks out from their side. It's worth considering where these reports are coming from...not the Wolves. That is worth considering. I'm certainly not suggesting verything is fine or good or Thins and Layden and Glen are all doing great hanging out and doing Yoga together while working thephones but something just seems off. I have some homeristic hope that somehow something magical happens and things turn around here with Thibs still coaching. I'm not really bettting on it or really hoping for it except I'm sort of an optimistic person about things.

2. We are all smart people here and come from various walks of life with various legit forms of expertise or just solid sense. However I think sometimes we overestimate our knowledge of situations surrounding how these deals come together. I'm guilty as anyone. Shams says "these trades for star players take weeks to get worked out.." weeks? What?!? I mean I get it but I honestly don't. That being said I have to realize Shams does know more about this than I do. That doesn't mean my outside perspective or opinion or anyone Kara here doesn't have value. I all can agree that sometimes people's different perspectives (including fans like us somewhat outside the situation) can enlighten the conversation.

I guess what I am saying is maybe we should be asking more questions about what we don't know and in some cases maybe be careful about getting caught up in every report (mostly rumored trades although it's kinda fun). I'm saying this to myself as much as anyone.

Also one last thing people keep saying Thibs is doing things to save his job. You know how he can save his job? Make a great trade both for now and the future which could be enough to make this team pretty good and get into the playoffs and do a lot of the things we have been hoping for. There is a chance he can do just that. Again I'm not betting on this but the trade a lot of people want is exactly how Thibs could save his job.

I hear what you're saying, Monster, but I think you're reaching a bit.

Reports of the disconnect between Thibodeau and Taylor on dealing Butler, at least initially, didn't have to come from the Wolves to be credible or true. The reports from other teams of confusion, not getting responses from the Wolves front office, and being told by Taylor to contact him directly if they don't get anywhere with the front office are unusual. The reports, coming from multiple teams through trusted reporters like Jon K and Woj don't seem fabricated.

Jon K's report about Butler not flying back with the team and telling Thibodeau months ago of his desire to be elsewhere probably did come from someone in the Wolves organization. But regardless of where those reports came from, they're actually validated now by the fact that Jimmy is demanding a trade. Those reports are also consistent with earlier reports this summer of Butler expressing his disdain for Towns and Wiggins. Thibodeau mentioned earlier this summer that he was in regular communication with Butler, which further suggests he should have know where Jimmy's Head was at. Jimmy's not one to hold back. Thibodeau probably blew it off because he didn't want to believe it. He likely figured the team would play, win games and Butler's attitude would change. He assumed human emotions and personalities wouldn't get in the way. That's what you'd expect from a head coach who never pats a player on the back. But that's not the way the world works. Organizations, including basketball teams (especially basketball teams) are all about personalities, egos, emotions and relationships. Even winning championships couldn't keep Shaq from leaving the Lakers to get away from Kobe. Thibodeau is an impersonal one-dimensional thinker who doesn't dwell in the world of relationships. That's why he so ill-suited to being a head coach, especially in today's NBA. And it's part of what ultimately led to his failure as PBO to address this situation before it became another tragic Wolves drama.

The situation is bad, but there's no point denying it. This isn't all that complicated. Thibodeau came here to coach what he called the "best young roster in the NBA" but failed to do any better than Sam Mitchell did with the same group even those the group he inherited was obviously more experienced than they were under Sam. So Thibodeau then set out to remake the roster in his image with Butler, Taj and Teague. The makeover worked, helping the team win 16 more games and make the playoffs. The deal had risks -- Jimmy's history of missing games with injuries and alienating teammates and the fact he had only 2 years left on his contract before he could opt out. But as last season progressed, Thibodeau was apparently unable (likely unwilling) to manage relationships on the team or rein in Jimmy Butler. After the season it seems that Thibodeau was unwilling to accept the possibility that Butler might not fit well long term or that he might seek to leave -- even when Jimmy was expressing those sentiments.

If we can't agree that Thibodeau is pathologically stubborn than we can't agree the earth is round. What we're seeing unfold before our eyes and the related reports all line up with the Thibodeau we're all seen in plain view. So here we are. It's not good, but it is definitely Thibs and it shouldn't be all that surprising.

First of all:

"than we can't agree the earth is round."

It's a good thing we didn't trade for Kyrie or be in a position to draft Lonnie Walker! lol :)

Lip I just feel there is some missing information or something that doesn't add up. I'm not suggesting this missing piece or whatever it is helps or hurts any particular narrative. Maybe it's something that's absolutely damning to one or maybe all parties Butler Thibs and Glen. Idk. I'm just looking for truth which as Flip said it can't be controversial. We may never have enough info for a clear picture of what went down the last few months. I'm personally unsatified with what I know to make a complete assessment on this situation. It just feels like there is something again IDK what but something. And no, I don't think the missing info has anything to do with a woman.

Lol. Actually, Monster, I was thinking of Kyrie when I wrote that line. Glad you didn't let it slide. :)

I agree that we have incomplete information. I just think we have plenty of information to get the gist of the situation. Honestly, the situation is so ridiculous that it would seem there's some set of unknown facts that would make sense of those whole thing if we only knew those facts. Alas, we'll probably never know the whole story. But I have a strong sense that, if we knew everything, it would just confirm that Butler's a jerk, Thibodeau should not be a head coach or PBO, Glen Taylor tends to make bad hiring decisions and then for some reason Glen takes way too long moving on from his bad decisions.

What I know for sure is that this team into which I pour a lot of money and emotion is in a pretty bad situation and that it could have been avoided. And I don't see any evidence that we can trust the owner and current front office team to successfully make things right.

Lip - so assuming your assessment is spot on, how do see this playing out over the next week or two?

Does Glen have a drop-dead date for a trade to be consummated? Is Thibs gone no matter what, but is merely being retained to complete the Butler trade?

The pure insubordination claim would suggest we are coming to head very soon...

Stein has reported that Miami is now Butler preferred destination

Richardson, bam, and winslow for jimmy.

Done, i don't even need winslow. Any salary filler will do.

60WinTim wrote:Lip - so assuming your assessment is spot on, how do see this playing out over the next week or two?

Does Glen have a drop-dead date for a trade to be consummated? Is Thibs gone no matter what, but is merely being retained to complete the Butler trade?

The pure insubordination claim would suggest we are coming to head very soon...

Great questions, Tim.

1. Drop-dead date? I suspect Glen has told Thibodeau and Layden that a deal needs to be done before the season opener, but that he'd prefer it be done sooner. Then again, Glen may have simply said to get it done ASAP without any firm specific deadline. Glen's first order of business was to get Thibodeau and Layden to actually take calls and indicate an openness to trade Butler. That's what's so weird about this.

2. Is Thibs being retained only to complete the Butler trade? Perhaps. I've been asking my self the same question, but it's so hard to know with Glen. As we all know, Glen is famous for being slow to fire executives he hires. I think there are three possibilities: (a) he fires Thibs from both positions as soon as the Butler deal is done; (b) he removes Thibs only from the PBO position when the Butler deal is done, but retains him as head coach; or (c) he keeps him in both positions for the season. My head tells me he'll fire Thibs from both positions as soon as the Butler deal is done. But that may wishful thinking on my part.

As you said, Thibodeau's insubordination, even if not quite as bad as reported, would suggest things coming to a head soon. And even if none of the insubordination reports are true, Thibodeau's screw up with the Butler situation before the trade deman is so bad that I can't see Glen retaining him as PBO much longer.

crazy-canuck wrote:Richardson, bam, and winslow for jimmy.

Done, i don't even need winslow. Any salary filler will do.

Yeah, Winslow is the least appealing of those three in my opinion. I'm not sure what he brings us that we don't already have.

Richardson is a legit wing and Bam is still very young with a solid rookie year under his belt.

Q12543 wrote:

crazy-canuck wrote:Richardson, bam, and winslow for jimmy.

Done, i don't even need winslow. Any salary filler will do.

Yeah, Winslow is the least appealing of those three in my opinion. I'm not sure what he brings us that we don't already have.

Richardson is a legit wing and Bam is still very young with a solid rookie year under his belt.

I really don't mind winslow, but i just don't want to deal with his next contract. It's just too much of a crap shoot. Id take a first, but then the salaries wont match.

i wouldn't trade him to Miami unless it's clearly the best deal out there. We have no idea what's on the table today from anybody.