Minnesota Sports Forum

khans2k5 wrote:

Tactical unit wrote:I don't see the case for Okafor, no jump shot, poor FT shooter and his post play is all about size and strength, no finesse hook just power. I see good foot work, nice handles and an awesome athletic spin move. Where is that athleticism on defense? His motor lacks at times and his defensive is rather weak for a man of his size. He doesn't understand angles that well, avoids contact, is prone to be blown by smaller guards. He's more big and strong than explosive and athletic. I'd take the more refined product in Towns and with Flip's win now mentality I think he'll do just that :)

You're criticizing the guy's post game which is elite and argued to be once in a generation level. This is the problem with the draft process. Guys get ridiculously picked apart. Trying to down play his post ability. Come on.

His post play is all about size and strength, no finesse hook just power. Followed up by praise for his foot work and handles w/ an awesome athletic spin move is criticizing his post game? I don't understand where you got that from and if MN does take him I wouldn't be bashing him as it's hard to know which one will turn out better. My personal dislikes against Okafor are mild in nature and have to do with his effort disappearing at times and some small flaws in defense. But down playing his post play, that's putting words in my mouth that I never said or indicated as my thoughts.

Tactical unit wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Tactical unit wrote:I don't see the case for Okafor, no jump shot, poor FT shooter and his post play is all about size and strength, no finesse hook just power. I see good foot work, nice handles and an awesome athletic spin move. Where is that athleticism on defense? His motor lacks at times and his defensive is rather weak for a man of his size. He doesn't understand angles that well, avoids contact, is prone to be blown by smaller guards. He's more big and strong than explosive and athletic. I'd take the more refined product in Towns and with Flip's win now mentality I think he'll do just that :)

You're criticizing the guy's post game which is elite and argued to be once in a generation level. This is the problem with the draft process. Guys get ridiculously picked apart. Trying to down play his post ability. Come on.

His post play is all about size and strength, no finesse hook just power. Followed up by praise for his foot work and handles w/ an awesome athletic spin move is criticizing his post game? I don't understand where you got that from and if MN does take him I wouldn't be bashing him as it's hard to know which one will turn out better. My personal dislikes against Okafor are mild in nature and have to do with his effort disappearing at times and some small flaws in defense. But down playing his post play, that's putting words in my mouth that I never said or indicated as my thoughts.

It's contradictory to say the guy is a power post player while praising him for his footwork and a spin move. Great footwork and a spin move are finesse moves. You don't have to have a sky hook to be a finesse big man. Your post to me made him sound one dimensional (only uses power) which he is not. So maybe I just misread your post.

papalrep wrote:Carlos Danger - The decision for Flip might be easy: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/2015/5/21/8633423/report-jahlil-okafor-doesnt-want-to-play-for-t-wolves

Forget Okafukk. I told you one of these guys would go Diva

In reading that article, it just sounds like they're quoting a random opinion, nothing from his camp.

With that said, I wouldn't be crushed if he said that, since most of us prefer Towns anyway.

I know 90% of you are firmly on the Towns bandwagon and for the sake of good debate I'm going to be the Okafor advocate. We have some time until draft night, so sitting around and agreeing with each other will be boring, so I'm going to give it my best shot.

- There is clear separation offensively between Okafor and Towns. Okafor has the best post game since Duncan. Dwight Howard who has been the "best" center in the league for some time has worked with different guys to develop great post moves and footwork. Howard is a great athlete. Despite his great athleticism and work he hasn't developed a great post game. Which leads me to the point that you can't teach what Okafor has in the post.

- With teams changing the way the game is played, doesn't it make sense to take advantage of all the teams going with small ball? Okafor would come into the league at 19 being one of the strongest Cs in the league. Remember how much Shaq dominated by just being stronger? I am no way saying Okafor is Shaq, we probably will never see another Shaq in our lifetimes. That being said the effect will be similar with the C position being smaller and weaker than it was in the 90s and early 2000s. I think it's similar to the NFL that transitioned to a passing league. Now you have teams like Seattle who play old school football succeeding because defenses are now built to stop the pass. NBA defenses are now built smaller to be able to guard all the stretch players, a big dominating guy like Okafor would be able to clean up.

- A great post game opens up the three. Probasketballtalk had an article about Phil Jackson claiming the game should still be played inside out. Teams collapsing on a dominate post player should open up things for the perimeter players. If you want to be a team that hits more threes you will need more open looks. Okafor not only helps with scoring efficiency because he himself is one of the most efficient players to play college ball, but because he creates better looks for his teammates. Okafor is one of the best passing bigs.

- Size. Okafor is huge. He boats a 7'6" wingspan. Huge hands. 6'11" listed anywhere from 250-270. He is a big dude, and only 19, so growth could still be there.

- Very athletic for his size. For some reason people knock his athleticism. For a guy his size to beat the defense off the dribble from the 3 point line shows his athleticism. His quickness in the post is also a testament to that. He isn't Hakeem, but I'm not sure we will ever see a big as athletic and as good as Olajuwon, I thought Embiid would but who knows if he will ever be healthy.

- With his size, great footwork, and solid athleticism he boast defensive potential. Here is a clip of him guarding Mudiay, and staying with him very well:
http://youtu.be/DZUC5W6RuSY
A theory on why Okafor didn't show intensity on the defensive end was because Duke had very limited options backing him up. He was the man on that team and they could afford to lose him. That's a theory that Flip needs to follow through on. If that's the case Okafor has the tools to be a good defender. Will he win DPOY? No. Will he be first team all defense? Probably not, but we have seen big men and other players that struggled with defense early develop into solid defenders. We have also seen guys come into the league branded as great defenders struggle on defense. Sometimes the system you are in dictates how good you look defensively. Okafor didn't have WCS to help him out. He didn't have Johnson on the bench if he got in foul trouble. There is defensive potential in Okafor.

- He was the man a Duke. Even with Winslow and Jones on the team, Okafor was the guy Duke rode with. He only had a small handful of games where he was held in the single digits. Towns had 20 such games.

- He played banged up in the tournament. This explains some of the drop off in play and his lack of conditioning.

- We have seen a great post dominate player and a great wing player create one of the best duos in NBA history. Had Shaq and Kobe not had massive egos their legacy would be much bigger. Shaq screwed up a great situation in Orlando and in LA. Could Okafor and Wiggins be the next great duo. Towns has shown in stretches he can be a good offensive player, Okafor has shown in stretches he can be a solid defender. Does Flip feel he can develop Okafor into a defender easier than he can develop Towns into an offensive force, or vise versa. Time will tell.

Great find on that youtube clip TRKO, those feet looked pretty quick right there. Not as fast as I've seen towns move on D, but still quick.

Yeah, nice clip and write-up, TKRO...makes me feel a lot better about Okafor.

(Don't send it to Flip)

Okafor's defensive potential:
http://youtu.be/xFa_Dax54w0

You see he has another gear defensively he is capable of reaching. The question is why isn't he consistently reaching it? Is he lazy or is being told to back down because they need him on the floor? Does Towns limited minutes give him the advantage to be able to play with more energy than Okafor? Towns averaged 10 minutes less per game. Would Okafor's defense look better if he were on Kentucky and able to play with more intensity and take more chances like Towns?

I'm not saying Okafor is better defensively than Towns, but if you feel Okafor will develop into a solid or even good defender do you take him over Towns who may be a great defender?

longstrangetrip wrote:Yeah, nice clip and write-up, TKRO...makes me feel a lot better about Okafor.

(Don't send it to Flip)

I'm sure Flip is aware, this is why it's not a slam dunk case. I haven't even built my case for Russell yet. To me all three guys are neck and neck.

Probably not, but we have seen big men and other players that struggled with defense early develop into solid defenders

This is true IF those players have the attitude necessary to play defense. On various forums, I keep seeing Marc Gasol as a comparison for how a big was poor on defense, but turned into a good defender. How was this possible? Because Gasol had the attitude to play defense already instilled in him. He was just too out of shape, slow and unlearned to the NBA game. He fixed two of those problems by shedding weight, getting stronger and applying himself to the X's of basketball. I'm not expecting Okafor to change his personality.

Okafor's been what he is for all his life now. He's been the low post savant who can hang 25-30 points on you with efficiency from the field. The guy's never thought twice about defense, though. All this defensive potential I keep hearing is nice in theory, but realistically, he's never going to be anything better than average on that end (and that's with improvement) because he doesn't believe he needs to be. Yes, he has the size and length to be a good defender, but why didn't we see it in college when he was playing against inferior competition? The real reason is because Jahlil just didn't care. He didn't hustle back on defense, he didn't move his feet, he didn't contest shots at the rim, he didn't grab defensive rebounds (an underrate weakness of his), etc. It's not going to get any easier in the NBA, I can promise you that.

Okafor didn't have WCS to help him out.

But he did have Justise Winslow and Amile Jefferson, two above average defenders in their own right. The whole "Towns had WCS to help him" narrative is a bit played out at this point.

Does Flip feel he can develop Okafor into a defender easier than he can develop Towns into an offensive force, or vise versa. Time will tell.

Towns already is an offensive force, though. He's just not elite at one area yet on that side of the floor. He already is a very good passer (better than Okafor), he already is a good shooter (from the FT line and perimeter), he does have a good handle for a big, he's got a competent post game (hooks over both shoulders, running hooks, drop step in each box, fade-away jumper in spurts). Towns just isn't refined yet. The skill is there, though. For the most part, Okafor is a huge project defensively. That's where the question that you asked is lopsided in Towns' favor. It's going to take much less work to turn Towns into a great big than it is Okafor mainly because he's already advanced in so many areas. Okafor's elite, ELITE, at one thing (low-post) and very good at another (passing). After that, though, it's a lot of improvement that you're [all JO supporters] banking on to happen.

Towns was held in the single digits in 51% of games played. Is that because Calipari was limiting him? Why would Calipari limit him and not other highly touted and drafted bigs like Cousins who was only held in the single digits in 18% of his games while only playing 23 minutes per game and Anthony Davis was held to single digits in only 20% of his games? Julius Randle was held to single digits in only 13 percent of his games. What Kentucky PF/C am I missing? Is it because of Kentucky's style or is it because Towns is an overrated offensive player by draft writers? Why did he score in single digits in more games than he scored in double digits? Why wasn't he a more consistent scorer in college? Can we expect him to come to the NBA and be consistent scoring the basketball when he wasn't his one year in college? If it's not in Okafor's attitude to become a consistent defender, even when he has shown flashes of it, why is it in Towns attitude to become a consistent scorer when he has only shown flashes of scoring ability? Is Towns offensive repertoire overrated?

There is also a difference being flanked by a fellow 7' and a guy that's 6'10. It allows you to play more aggressively on defense, to go after more blocked shots because you know you have another big that has your back.

I'm fully aware some of you are going to hate me for playing devils advocate on Towns. I just don't see how it's so clear cut between prospects, so I'm trying to show people my point of view. Amile Jefferson, Marshall Plumlee do not compare to WCS, Lyles, and Johnson. You bring up Winslow who is a great defender, but he is a wing perimeter guy. You watch a Kentucky game, when the opposing team attacks the paint there are 2-3 giants swarming. I would like to think that helps. Don't get me wrong Towns is a great defender. I don't mean to demean him, my point is to say that if Okafor had that sort of support he would have looked better. He could have played with more aggression, at Duke he was pretty much it when it came to quality big men. Duke had a limited rotation, foul trouble was not an option and fatigue was something to consider so players had to pace themselves. There is another gear to Okafor's defense, the question is can you get him to consistently play there.

So what you have is an inconsistent offensive big and an inconsistent defensive big. Both seem like good kids, passionate about the game, hard workers. Is Okafor's offense better than Towns' defense, or vise versa?