Thibs out

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Coolbreeze44
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Re: Thibs out

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

khans2k5 wrote:
Camden0916 wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:The Warriors loved playing for Marc Jackson. Clearly they made a major mistake letting him go because his players loved him. That's all that matters. You tried hard and you won some games and you never sniffed a title. Somebody get this guy a trophy.


And yet, you're the smartass going off topic. Nobody's talking about what the Bulls (or Warriors) should do or did do. The conversation starter was should Thibs be the Wolves coach if it was possible. The correct answer is yes.


I've very clearly given my reasons why I don't want Thibs to be my coach. The smartass comments come in when you guys give us smartass comebacks telling us about how great he is and calling us things like myopic among other things because we aren't ok with a guy who's going to run this team into the ground to the tune of a good regular season record with no real post season success. Get off your fucking high horses. You come at us putting our opinions down because it doesn't match yours and then you bitch at us for smartass posts that you guys prompt with your own smartass posts? I want the right coach, not just a better coach.

Again, very well said. Why are we held to a different standard?
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khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
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Re: Thibs out

Post by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728] »

Camden0916 wrote:I think it's comical that khans takes something away from Thibs' COY award because he had the MVP of the league, but 100% refuses to give him any leeway in the playoffs when he was WITHOUT that MVP player. You're justifying an argument by whatever you see fit and I'm calling you on it. It's just not fair in this case. Either give him credit for the COY or lighten up on the playoff record thing.


I've already previously cut him slack for not doing well in the playoffs in 2011, but that's 1/5 of his playoff track record. So I should just say all his playoff struggles were in 2011 and he's actually a good playoff coach? SMH. Playoffs don't count for COY either so it is completely separate from his playoff record. These playoffs shows that most teams are dealing with injuries so why does he get more slack than all the other coaches? D Rose going down is an excuse for 1 playoff season, not all 5. I didn't give Brooks a break for dealing with injuries same as I'm not giving Thibs the excuse. They each had plenty of good players around their stars to do some damage without them and their teams fell apart after the injuries. That's on the coach for not having a system in place that can work without a piece or two. For a guy who typically has a no excuses attitude for our bad players you sure have nothing but excuses for Thibs in this argument.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Thibs out

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

CoolBreeze44 wrote:
Camden wrote:You're not sure...

But yet you have said multiple times that a reason why you're anti-Thibs is because you wouldn't want him to alienate our star player...

And he has no history of alienating players...

Actually, he has a history of the opposite. All-Star caliber players that have worked with Thibs have been vocal about how much they love and appreciate the guy.

So, me thinks you were talking out of your ass on that specific element of the topic. I can agree about his offensive shortcomings and SOME of the coaches you named that were better (Pop, Carlisle, Kerr, Bud; that's literally it), but the alienating thing is so far off base it's absurd.

Let me clarify: I never said he alienated any specific Bulls players. What I said was his style is not a good match with the mindset of today's NBA star. If I had to bet, I would say he has alienated some of his players. And I agree with those below who say it will be interesting to see what comes out now that he isn't in charge. One thing I do know is that upper management (Foreman, Paxson) felt he was too demanding of the players from a physical standpoint. You can debate that if you like, but that's what they told the players at the beginning of the season.


Okay, that's fair enough if that's what you believe (play style being against what a star would want). The way it was formerly wrote definitely sounded like Thibs had done something to a past player that drove him away, which is false. I guess I'll take the fault for not understanding what you were trying to convey.

I think Wiggins would be fine with it, though, to touch on your point. He just played the second most minutes in the league and 36 per game (39 per game after the AS break). He also doesn't seem like the character to complain about playing time. We'll see how this plays with Flip over the next few years because he himself could very well run Wiggins in the ground the way you fear Thibs could.
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thedoper
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Re: Thibs out

Post by thedoper »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
thedoper wrote:To be fair to Cool there have been multiple media reports that Thibs alientates lots of people, players included. A good response is to say that players haven't done it publically, which seems to be true. But that would really go against the athlete's code. Where there's smoke there usually is some fire. Who knows how true it is.

I am not sold on any one coach being the savior of this franchise as we still have a talent problem. I think this is more about optics then anything. We have been defensively challenged for a while. Here comes the best systems based active defensive coach. I think Flip owes it to the fans to at least kick the tires or present a rationale as to why not and be proactive about it.



There could be reports. So post them. It's not hard. That's what we do. We make claims... and they have more merit if you can back them up.

Plus, to be fair, were those reports leaked by Chicago management. You have to wonder about the leaked stories during the playoffs and the toll they took on the team.



[Note: I have to think that a coach that runs too many and too hard practices would have more of a negative reputation with players than he's had (reportedly). It will be interesting if more stories come out now that Thibodeau is gone. I wouldn't be surprised. I just don't think we can make those claims UNTIL there's something substantive behind them.]


I never said anything would be substantive. Getting a player on the record to badmouth their current coach is probably the most difficult story in sports to break. No player wants to have a label as uncoachable, it goes against their personal marketing opportunities. The kind of stories have all been conjecture, mostly in the form of radio spots, about what is happening in Chicago. I was just saying that those claims have existed in the sports world, and were not just being made up in one posters mind. Are they conjecture yes, but "problems in the locker room" stories are always conjecture because no one ever goes on the record with that stuff, except Kevin Love of course ;)

Here's one such podcast talking about Thibs:

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=12893139

Check out the comments starting around 55:30 citing "knowing players who think Thibs is a bad coach"
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Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]
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Re: Thibs out

Post by Hicks123 [enjin:6700838] »

khans2k5 wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:
Camden0916 wrote:
khans2k5 wrote:The Warriors loved playing for Marc Jackson. Clearly they made a major mistake letting him go because his players loved him. That's all that matters. You tried hard and you won some games and you never sniffed a title. Somebody get this guy a trophy.


And yet, you're the smartass going off topic. Nobody's talking about what the Bulls (or Warriors) should do or did do. The conversation starter was should Thibs be the Wolves coach if it was possible. The correct answer is yes.


I've very clearly given my reasons why I don't want Thibs to be my coach. The smartass comments come in when you guys give us smartass comebacks telling us about how great he is and calling us things like myopic among other things because we aren't ok with a guy who's going to run this team into the ground to the tune of a good regular season record with no real post season success. Get off your fucking high horses. You come at us putting our opinions down because it doesn't match yours and then you bitch at us for smartass posts that you guys prompt with your own smartass posts? I want the right coach, not just a better coach.




I've been confused by a lot of things on this site.

But any claims that my takes are "smart-ass comebacks" in this thread are going right over my head. I think I've been more than fair trying to see both sides of the issue and offering reasonable takes backed up with tangible data and information.

Maybe... slowly... I'm starting to realize this site isn't for me, not that anybody should care one way or the other.


It's 3 against 2 in this situation so it's not just you. I used the myopic example because the other call outs were on other pages I couldn't see on my phone. It wasn't sarcasm on your part, but you did basically call me out for not being able to see how good Thibs would be with us when the point I am making is it won't be good enough in the end anyway so I don't care much for hiring a placeholder.


In regards to bold. What the heck has this world come to. Now, we are not willing to hire ANYONE that is not going to magically bring this team a ring? It is suddenly not good enough to go from what is probably the worst team in the NBA last season to perhaps a respectable playoff spot? This is one of the most ridiculous things I have read on here in a long time. What happens with GS and Kerr this year if Curry misses 50% of the year. And then the next 3 players miss perhaps 15-20 games each. Because that's what the Bulls dealt with. Look, Kerr has an awesome team. And I am not going to debate whether he is or isn't an "elite" coach, because I have no background. But what I can say is that they have had a magical year in avoiding injuries. Their top 5 players missed a COMBINED 15 games...yes, 15 games. Rose alone missed 31. Butler - 17. Taj - 20. Noah - 15. Give GS the same circumstances, and we are not seeing Kerr as the next coming of Pop.

And I just keep coming back to the bold. How on earth will you...kahns (or anyone else)...know we have a coach that WILL win a championship. This is a complete fallacy. No one from the GS front office saw this season happening. Atlanta...same thing. Next year will be someone else that rises. Sometimes it's circumstances (like zero injuries), sometimes it is new players (ie Cleveland). But I am having a hard time understanding how we can definitively know which new coach will bring us a ring, and thus not be a "placeholder". Seems like something that is related to many things not in a coaches control.
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Volans19
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Re: Thibs out

Post by Volans19 »

Well said Hicks. People may convince me that Thibs is a bad choice because his teams have had injury history but I don't understand why he would be a bad option otherwise
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khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
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Re: Thibs out

Post by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728] »

Thibs' record against the Western Conference the last 5 years:

14'-15' 17-13 (57%)
13'-14' 13-18 (42%)
12'-13' 11-19 (37%)
11'-12' 12-6 (67%)
10'-11' 23-7 (77%)

Equals a 55% winning percentage against the West. His overall record is pulled up a full 10% because of how bad the East has been during his 5 years there. A 55% winning percentage in the Western Conference is a 45 win team on average which has at best tied for a 7th seed in the last 5 years and based on a tie breaker this year misses the playoffs in 2-3 of those years in the conference. This post was just to back up the conference disparity remark I have made on his coaching a couple times in this thread.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Thibs out

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

52-26 (66.7%) when his best player was actually on the court, which would have been good enough for 4th in the insanely tough West.

But fuck Thibs for not being dominant without his best player. How dare him.
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khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
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Re: Thibs out

Post by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728] »

Camden wrote:52-26 (66.7%) when his best player was actually on the court, which would have been good enough for 4th in the insanely tough West.

But fuck Thibs for not being dominant without his best player. How dare him.


So the fact that his teams had a trash record without Rose doesn't raise a huge red flag about his ability as a coach? He had other all-stars on those teams. It's not like Rose was surrounded with garbage. The fact that Thibs' record falls apart without Rose is a huge red flag to his coaching prowess in my book because that means his whole coaching style is built like a house of cards based on 1 player. You just argued that this great coach is only great when he has a certain player on his team. Sounds more like a player that made the coach than a good coach.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Thibs out

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

Boy, oh, boy. I'm in the wrong here? Let's judge a coach for what he does without his best player, his MVP of the league point guard. That's a max player that they had on the roster that just couldn't suit up. I'm not understanding why you're being so stubborn on recognizing this fact when it's fully legitimate. Excuse the hell out of me. And he was still a top-five playoff seed in the East without Rose so to say his team broke down without him is a bullshit lie.

He did have two other All-Stars on those teams. Luol Deng and Joakim Noah. Two offensively-limited guys to begin with that are much better known for their defensive abilities. Go figure they went through stretches where they couldn't get a bucket. I'll acknowledge that this year was the same in struggling to score during stretches, but I have already said Thibs isn't that good of an offensive coach.

It's not like Thibs had garbage, but he did have Kirk freaking Hinrich starting at point guard with Nate Robinson backing him up. If you're unable to see that as a major disadvantage, then I don't know how much further this argument needs to go before you realize you just don't know the NBA like you think you do.

The Bulls were a one superstar team those two years Rose went down, and that turned them into a zero superstar team. We saw what happened to the Thunder when they lost one of their stars. We saw what happened to Miami when Bosh went down. They both competed, but were too outgunned. For a guy that argues so often about how this is a superstar's league (I'm talking to you khans), you're sure being a hypocrite on this one to fit your position.

The reality is that Thibs held his teams together without Rose, made the playoffs both times (and every year as a HC), won a playoff series and managed to develop a handful of players along the way. What more could he do those two years? You're wanting to judge a guy for his record vs Western opponents without including that he didn't have Rose for 61 games of your total to make the percentage. How dare you.
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