Camden0916 wrote:I hate that some of you are still using that Bennett's a former No. 1 overall pick as a reason why he has potential. It means absolutely nothing.
And we hate how you continue to trash Bennett at every turn while still sticking with Thad when Thad has played like complete and utter garbage this year. Regardless of being a number 1 pick or not, you don't throw someone in the dumpster with less than 2 years under their belt. Too many players get better in years 3, 4 and 5 to be that stupid. He's 21, not 23-24-25.
60WinTim wrote:Hmm... Young/Daniels for Fields/James Johnson might get a deal done.
Daniels can't be traded in combination with any other player, but going off that idea.. maybe something like this instead? The Raptors may want a wing to replace Fields (if they even want to trade him) however.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=q9o35kf
Young/Williams for Johnson/Calderon
A lot of players have developed playing under 20 minutes per game...during the offseason. I for one don't care to wait for another offseason not knowing what he can do with real minutes. Nobody plays 20 MPG's and gets so much better with that little playing time that they take a starter's minutes in the same season. Please name someone who was a sub 20 MPG at the beginning of a year who earned rotation level minutes on a good team and not a team looking to get more information of what they have for personnel going into the offseason. You'll find most of the development comes during the offseason, but they have further to go if they don't have enough game experience. What is a legitimate argument to not do it because we haven't won a game in a month and Thad is not being a good veteran leader for this Rubio-less squad? We've seen what Thad does with starters minutes and it is far from anything special. We haven't really seen it from Bennett and he is from a physical standpoint a better matchup in the starting lineup. How is Thad starting benefitting this organization moving forward? He's blocking a potential development opportunity while contributing nothing towards winning or leadership.
I don't know Khans, it feels like you are just winging it here without actually doing any research on this.
I will paraphrase what you are saying above: "Players that play under 20 minutes per game can't develop during the season and can only develop during the offseason. It just isn't enough time for them to get better."
Really? How do you know this? So the ONLY way for players to get better during the season is to play 20+ minutes per night? You are saying that practices don't help, individual workouts don't help, scrimmaging doesn't help, and the 15 or so minutes of game action every night doesn't help either? None of that is valid unless somehow they cross this magical 20 minute per game threshold? On the face of it, that makes no sense.
By the way, your model of development is completely out of step with the entire continent of Europe (which is increasingly a major talent pipeline for the NBA), where games are 40 minutes and played only twice per week. Some of the best up and coming players in Europe learn their craft "only" playing 15-20 minutes per game. And that's with far, far fewer games than in the NBA. By your measure, they could never possibly get better during the season. It just isn't enough official game action!
As for Thad Young, this has never been about Thad versus AB for me. I agree that it's probably in everyone's best interest that Thad gets traded. But I don't believe AB should then be automatically promoted to the starting lineup. What has he done to earn it? Other young first/second year players that have been promoted into the starting lineup this season, including Shabazz Muhammed, Rudy Gobbert, and Jusuf Nurkic (off the top of my head) all showed strong play in limited minutes prior to their promotion. AB should have to do the same thing.
Isn't the game time logic really more about the level of competition? AB needs some minutes going against the best to learn. That is always how you raise your skills in anything competitive by playing against people better than you. If AB was going against a hall of famer every day in practice I would have more confidence in his development. Barring that he needs PT against Aldridge, Blake, ZBo etc. to raise his level of play. If we were winning, keep him on the bench. The assumption there is that we would have someone competent at the 4. Since we don't why not give him a chance to see what elite NBA competition is about.
thedoper wrote:Isn't the game time logic really more about the level of competition? AB needs some minutes going against the best to learn. That is always how you raise your skills in anything competitive by playing against people better than you. If AB was going against a hall of famer every day in practice I would have more confidence in his development. Barring that he needs PT against Aldridge, Blake, ZBo etc. to raise his level of play. If we were winning, keep him on the bench. The assumption there is that we would have someone competent at the 4. Since we don't why not give him a chance to see what elite NBA competition is about.
Man, this is such flawed logic. So basically, if a player is struggling to play against NBA bench competition, then what he really needs to do to develop is to play against even better competition! In what bizzaro world is this a valid theory?
So should we now start taking struggling JV high school players and have them start on the Varsity squad? Or may be the NBA should be the developmental league for the D-League instead of the other way around!
thedoper wrote:Isn't the game time logic really more about the level of competition? AB needs some minutes going against the best to learn. That is always how you raise your skills in anything competitive by playing against people better than you. If AB was going against a hall of famer every day in practice I would have more confidence in his development. Barring that he needs PT against Aldridge, Blake, ZBo etc. to raise his level of play. If we were winning, keep him on the bench. The assumption there is that we would have someone competent at the 4. Since we don't why not give him a chance to see what elite NBA competition is about.
Man, this is such flawed logic. So basically, if a player is struggling to play against NBA bench competition, then what he really needs to do to develop is to play against even better competition! In what bizzaro world is this a valid theory?
So should we now start taking struggling JV high school players and have them start on the Varsity squad? Or may be the NBA should be the developmental league for the D-League instead of the other way around!
We have no one else really. That is the point. We are not winning games with supposed pros. There is nothing flawed in opting for developing experience in your younger players when it is clear the veterans aren't giving you wins. Brewer was a better pro than Bazz, but trading Brewer allowed Bazz to show improvement. I am in no way saying that Bennet has earned an opportunity, I agree with you 100% on that. He has been horseshit. What I am saying is that playing against better competition is an effective way to develop talent. If we want to develop Bennett's talent quickly and get the best picture of his upward potential, throwing him in with the sharks is the best way to do that. Who cares if he still sucks? This team is going nowhere this year. He has physical gifts that others on the roster don't, lets see if he rises at all to a challenge. Maybe the kid has no competitive fire in him. I would like to see.
A lot of players have developed playing under 20 minutes per game...during the offseason. I for one don't care to wait for another offseason not knowing what he can do with real minutes. Nobody plays 20 MPG's and gets so much better with that little playing time that they take a starter's minutes in the same season. Please name someone who was a sub 20 MPG at the beginning of a year who earned rotation level minutes on a good team and not a team looking to get more information of what they have for personnel going into the offseason. You'll find most of the development comes during the offseason, but they have further to go if they don't have enough game experience. What is a legitimate argument to not do it because we haven't won a game in a month and Thad is not being a good veteran leader for this Rubio-less squad? We've seen what Thad does with starters minutes and it is far from anything special. We haven't really seen it from Bennett and he is from a physical standpoint a better matchup in the starting lineup. How is Thad starting benefitting this organization moving forward? He's blocking a potential development opportunity while contributing nothing towards winning or leadership.
I don't know Khans, it feels like you are just winging it here without actually doing any research on this.
I will paraphrase what you are saying above: "Players that play under 20 minutes per game can't develop during the season and can only develop during the offseason. It just isn't enough time for them to get better."
Really? How do you know this? So the ONLY way for players to get better during the season is to play 20+ minutes per night? You are saying that practices don't help, individual workouts don't help, scrimmaging doesn't help, and the 15 or so minutes of game action every night doesn't help either? None of that is valid unless somehow they cross this magical 20 minute per game threshold? On the face of it, that makes no sense.
By the way, your model of development is completely out of step with the entire continent of Europe (which is increasingly a major talent pipeline for the NBA), where games are 40 minutes and played only twice per week. Some of the best up and coming players in Europe learn their craft "only" playing 15-20 minutes per game. And that's with far, far fewer games than in the NBA. By your measure, they could never possibly get better during the season. It just isn't enough official game action!
As for Thad Young, this has never been about Thad versus AB for me. I agree that it's probably in everyone's best interest that Thad gets traded. But I don't believe AB should then be automatically promoted to the starting lineup. What has he done to earn it? Other young first/second year players that have been promoted into the starting lineup this season, including Shabazz Muhammed, Rudy Gobbert, and Jusuf Nurkic (off the top of my head) all showed strong play in limited minutes prior to their promotion. AB should have to do the same thing.
Where is your research either? You are just broadly generalizing the opposite of what I am saying while providing no evidence yourself. Guess what playing two times a week allows European teams to do? Practice. As NBA seasons progress, the practice time gets less and less as teams try to manage the fatigue of their players. That is why guys getting less than 20 MPG's typically don't earn new roles at the end of the year over the established starters because they have less practice time on top of only 20 MPG's to take that spot. I use 20 MPG's because anything less is spot minutes more than being a real rotation player. 20-25 minutes is what real bench rotation players get and it is what all our other consistent bench players have been getting with the exception of Bud.
I'm not saying there is zero development that happens during the season, but for guys playing under 20 MPG's it is significantly less because they don't even get the in game reps to see how the tools they are supposed to be developing look like in a real game. It is the whole reason the D League exists. It's the whole reason summer league exists. They give players the time on the court they need to develop. Why was Bazz sent to the D League last year? To actually play basketball because he was rotting away on the bench. Less than 20 MPG's is just not going to help a player develop. I would rather Bennett play big minutes in the D League than continue to be dog housed here because he's not going to magically get better as a result of his limited role. Please name a player who attributed their development to those 18 MPG's they got as a young player that really helped them figure out who they are as a basketball player. It doesn't happen because that season is a throw away and they use the offseason to come back and take somebody's spot. If we want Bennett to bust out of the league then feel free to keep dog housing him at every turn and never give him a shot because he doesn't beat Thad Young out in practice when Young has 6 years of experience on him.
I'm sick of the talk of him earning it when he is not being given the same opportunities as Thad to earn it. It is like telling him to win a race when the other guy has a significant headstart. Play them both 24 MPG's equal time with starters and bench players for 20 games and see who does better. Then dog house him if he doesn't earn it, but I haven't seen anything from Thad that makes me think he needs to be playing twice as many minutes as AB for the sake of this team moving forward. Being older is not an excuse for having complete control of your starting spot when you are barely outplaying your significantly younger counterpart on a rebuilding team. Bennett may not have earned the spot, but Thad hasn't shown a reason why he needs to keep it.
Bazz proved that he was capable of being an NBA player before he got the uplift in minutes. It was when Bazz showed consistency in his performance that Flip decided to trade Corey. He knew he had someone that could play and be productive.
Bennett doesn't fit this at all. For ten games he's quiet and gets worked on defense, then one game he'll have the 18-footer going and we're supposed to get excited. You don't reward inconsistent play/effort with a starting job. I don't care if AB's 18, 22 or 27. That's just not a formula for success. He hasn't even earned the backup PF position as I actually think Hummel is far better.
Also, how is he supposed to magically get better by going against starters? He can't even handle bench players right now! Not to mention we saw Bazz thrive against second units and then have a tougher time against starters. It's illogical what some of you are saying.
Camden wrote:Bazz proved that he was capable of being an NBA player before he got the uplift in minutes. It was when Bazz showed consistency in his performance that Flip decided to trade Corey. He knew he had someone that could play and be productive.
Bennett doesn't fit this at all. For ten games he's quiet and gets worked on defense, then one game he'll have the 18-footer going and we're supposed to get excited. You don't reward inconsistent play/effort with a starting job. I don't care if AB's 18, 22 or 27. That's just not a formula for success. He hasn't even earned the backup PF position as I actually think Hummel is far better.
Also, how is he supposed to magically get better by going against starters? He can't even handle bench players right now! Not to mention we saw Bazz thrive against second units and then have a tougher time against starters. It's illogical what some of you are saying.
I agree Cam, that's the point I've been trying to make; it's twisted logic. What's even more amazing is that we did exactly what Khans and Doper are advocating for Bennett with Zach LaVine (i.e. promote to starting lineup without first earning it off the bench) and Flip finally had to demote him back to the bench because the offense ran so poorly with him as our starting PG.
Khans/Doper, We'll just agree to disagree on this one as clearly we have divergent views of player development.
Camden0916 wrote:Bazz proved that he was capable of being an NBA player before he got the uplift in minutes. It was when Bazz showed consistency in his performance that Flip decided to trade Corey. He knew he had someone that could play and be productive.
Bennett doesn't fit this at all. For ten games he's quiet and gets worked on defense, then one game he'll have the 18-footer going and we're supposed to get excited. You don't reward inconsistent play/effort with a starting job. I don't care if AB's 18, 22 or 27. That's just not a formula for success. He hasn't even earned the backup PF position as I actually think Hummel is far better.
Also, how is he supposed to magically get better by going against starters? He can't even handle bench players right now! Not to mention we saw Bazz thrive against second units and then have a tougher time against starters. It's illogical what some of you are saying.
He could develop some consistency to his play which is tough to do in 18 MPG's. That alone would be worth the starting gig if it happened. The worst way to develop consistency in a player is not playing him in a consistent manner (aka getting benched after every mistake). He's also setup to be more successful against starters than Thad from a physical standpoint. There is no argument for Thad being a better matchup against starting 4's when he is undersized and gets pushed around so easily. Thad is getting eaten alive by opposing 4's so I don't see how Bennett can be that much worse. Until it I see it, I don't buy that Bennett would be so much worse as a starter against the better competition that we shouldn't even be considering it. He's been a starter his whole life except his two worst years of his career which happen to be coming off the bench. Maybe starting games will get his head in the game from the outset rather than expecting him to go from cold to hot off the bench. We'll never know if it never happens. Learning to be an effective bench player takes a different mindset than what these guys are used to their entire lives. That is why so many of the great role players in the NBA are veterans versus 1st or 2nd year guys and it is why you hear the word potential with young guys and you hear you know what you are getting with veterans.
