Minnesota Sports Forum

I'm not doing this. Lol I've said everything I need to say. June 25th will be here soon enough.

TRKO - I agree. I think Towns is the riskiest of the top 3. He just didn't have the production of the others and I brought that up earlier in the season. It is concern and you have to wonder if Cap was hiding him. He surely didn't hide AD, Noel, or Randle. They all just seemed more impressive.

bleedspeed177 wrote:TRKO - I agree. I think Towns is the riskiest of the top 3. He just didn't have the production of the others and I brought that up earlier in the season. It is concern and you have to wonder if Cap was hiding him. He surely didn't hide AD, Noel, or Randle. They all just seemed more impressive.

That's my point. To have the first overall pick score in the single digits in more than half of his games is concerning despite him having good offensive tools. That's a point that can't be buried and needs to be brought up.

That is why I am so pro Russell. Elite shooting, passing/vision, size, and rebounding for a PG. He just has the most production in this draft.

bleedspeed177 wrote:That is why I am so pro Russell. Elite shooting, passing/vision, size, and rebounding for a PG. He just has the most production in this draft.

Me too. I personally feel comfortable with the big 3, but Russell may be the best player in the draft.

I'm legitimately torn on this. They both look like very good big men coming out of the draft, which is rare.

In this thread, guys who definitely lean one way or the other are overstating their own guys' strengths and the other guys' weaknesses. But it's clear both look like very good players.

Why I Lean Toward Towns
I tend to lean toward Towns when I think about how he'd fit with our team and with the league in general. We have scorers: Wiggins, Bazz, LaVine, Martin, even Dieng and Pek. But we are a terrible defensive team, and we've needed a legit shot-blocker rebounder type of player for years. He and the team would be fun to watch. He'd get some lobs and not need to take too many touches away from Wiggins and the other young wings. The advanced stats look good too, and I could see him having an Andrew Bynum effect on a team (and if you doubt that's valuable, check out what Bynum did when healthy) without the attitude problem. It's nice that he wouldn't hurt you at the FT line. He'd bring the kind of versatility, particularly defensively, that more and more teams seem to rely on in the league as well. I think blocks themselves are a little overrated, but they speak to a guy's ability to force a team into more low-percentage shots away from the basket, which is why a guy like Gobert can have such a huge impact on a team. Towns could help us do that.

Why I'm Wary of Towns
I'm not actually that wary--I think he'll be really good--but I hesitate for a couple reasons. I think it might be a couple years before we can expect the kind of efficiency he showed in short stretches at Kentucky (his limited role at Kentucky still puzzles me and makes me a little more hesitant to buy into him being the best player in this draft), especially over long minutes in the NBA. His advanced stats look good offensively, but he just looks a little stiff with the ball--which is partly why I think the Duncan comparisons are a stretch. I also think he's being oversold a little bit when it comes to shooting with range and I don't think he's quite as athletic as people make him out--he's not Deandre Jordan-athletic. Still, if he ends up being a more defensive Andrew Bynum in his prime without an attitude problem, that's pretty good!

We've all seen these before, but people for and against should still watch a ton of clips to get a sense for what sort of player these guys will be.

Towns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPu9Sg09wC0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai99J2NNGM0

Why I Lean Toward Okafor
. . . mostly for the same reasons people have posted here before. Statistically, there's no need for extrapolation here. He produced throughout his freshman year against consistent double-teams. He was clearly THE MAN on his team from day one while Towns was honestly an afterthought in a lot of Kentucky games. Stats and the eye test both say this guy is clearly going to be an absolute beast offensively. I mean seriously. Just watch his highlight videos and look at his freaking footwork and his touch with the ball. He really does just do anything he wants with it. And he is huge, watch him get post position. Finding a skilled player that big is really rare. He was double-teamed all year long, and he showed a very good ability to pass out and even dribble out of trouble. I think he's definitely more skilled than Big Al in terms of passing, floor vision, footwork, and ability to put the ball on the floor. I don't see the mid-range shot yet, but I think he's got the potential to be even BETTER offensively than Duncan--can't believe I just wrote that.

Why I Am Wary of Okafor
With his size and length, I think he could be a pretty good defender (you don't have to block shots to be a good defender), but I question whether he has the mentality to do that, and that worries me. Maybe his defensive passivity is from Duke's "don't foul" mentality, or because he's always been told to avoid fouling because his teams need his offense, or because he does work so much on offense that he's saving it for that end, but I want a guy who WANTS to play defense consistently, especially on the team we already have. I'm not worried about him eating up space down low offensively like I've heard some people mention (lots of great teams have had inside-out threats), but frankly, it's just not quite as exciting to watch a low-post scorer for me personally. Still, you can't argue with results. I think we overstate the concern about his FTs, but 80 is obviously better than 50!

Okafor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec--Gu9Ud7Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61JZLaGwMWk


Some days I lean Towns. Other days Okafor. Ultimately, I think either way we'll get a good player, and a good chance at the best one in the draft--unless Russell turns into James Harden/Kobe Bryant--in which case, we wasted all this time debating for nothing! :)

SameOldDrew wrote:I'm legitimately torn on this. They both look like very good big men coming out of the draft, which is rare.

In this thread, guys who definitely lean one way or the other are overstating their own guys' strengths and the other guys' weaknesses. But it's clear both look like very good players.

Why I Lean Toward Towns
I tend to lean toward Towns when I think about how he'd fit with our team and with the league in general. We have scorers: Wiggins, Bazz, LaVine, Martin, even Dieng and Pek. But we are a terrible defensive team, and we've needed a legit shot-blocker rebounder type of player for years. He and the team would be fun to watch. He'd get some lobs and not need to take too many touches away from Wiggins and the other young wings. The advanced stats look good too, and I could see him having an Andrew Bynum effect on a team (and if you doubt that's valuable, check out what Bynum did when healthy) without the attitude problem. It's nice that he wouldn't hurt you at the FT line. He'd bring the kind of versatility, particularly defensively, that more and more teams seem to rely on in the league as well. I think blocks themselves are a little overrated, but they speak to a guy's ability to force a team into more low-percentage shots away from the basket, which is why a guy like Gobert can have such a huge impact on a team. Towns could help us do that.

Why I'm Wary of Towns
I'm not actually that wary--I think he'll be really good--but I hesitate for a couple reasons. I think it might be a couple years before we can expect the kind of efficiency he showed in short stretches at Kentucky, especially over long minutes in the NBA. His advanced stats look good offensively, but he just looks a little stiff with the ball--which is partly why I think the Duncan comparisons are a stretch. I also think he's being oversold a little bit when it comes to shooting with range and I don't think he's quite as athletic as people make him out--he's not Deandre Jordan-athletic. Still, if he ends up being a more defensive Andrew Bynum in his prime without an attitude problem, that's pretty good!

We've all seen these before, but people for and against should still watch a ton of clips to get a sense for what sort of player these guys will be.

Towns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPu9Sg09wC0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai99J2NNGM0

Why I Lean Toward Okafor
. . . mostly for the same reasons people have posted here before. Statistically, there's no need for extrapolation here. He produced throughout his freshman year against consistent double-teams. Stats and the eye test both say this guy is clearly going to be an absolute beast offensively. I mean seriously. Just watch his highlight videos and look at his freaking footwork and his touch with the ball. He really does just do anything he wants with it. And he is huge, watch him get post position. Finding a skilled player that big is really rare. He was double-teamed all year long, and he showed a very good ability to pass out and even dribble out of trouble. I think he's definitely more skilled than Big Al in terms of passing, floor vision, footwork, and ability to put the ball on the floor. I don't see the mid-range shot yet, but I think he's got the potential to be even BETTER offensively than Duncan--can't believe I just wrote that.

Why I Am Wary of Okafor
With his size and length, I think he could be a pretty good defender (you don't have to block shots to be a good defender), but I question whether he has the mentality to do that, and that worries me. Maybe his defensive passivity is from Duke's "don't foul" mentality, or because he's always been told to avoid fouling because his teams need his offense, or because he does work so much on offense that he's saving it for that end, but I want a guy who WANTS to play defense consistently, especially on the team we already have. I'm not worried about him eating up space down low offensively like I've heard some people mention (lots of great teams have had inside-out threats), but frankly, it's just not quite as exciting to watch a low-post scorer for me personally. Still, you can't argue with results. I think we overstate the concern about his FTs, but 80 is obviously better than 50!

Okafor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec--Gu9Ud7Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61JZLaGwMWk


Some days I lean Towns. Other days Okafor. Ultimately, I think either way we'll get a good player, and a good chance at the best one in the draft--unless Russell turns into James Harden/Kobe Bryant--in which case, we wasted all this time debating for nothing! :)

Good stuff. Flip is probably losing sleep over this because it's such a close call. That's a good thing though. The only thing that would make it better is if a clear cut Anthony Davis type were in this draft. He isn't, but there are 3 guys in the tier just below him in this draft. If Flip hits we will be champion contenders in 3-5 years (provided Wiggins and LaVine grow as expected and players stay healthy). If he misses we are a like Portland or Memphis. Good teams but probably not championship teams. Right now I would settle for good, but let's get greedy and strive for a title.

Camden0916 wrote:

Probably not, but we have seen big men and other players that struggled with defense early develop into solid defenders

This is true IF those players have the attitude necessary to play defense. On various forums, I keep seeing Marc Gasol as a comparison for how a big was poor on defense, but turned into a good defender. How was this possible? Because Gasol had the attitude to play defense already instilled in him. He was just too out of shape, slow and unlearned to the NBA game. He fixed two of those problems by shedding weight, getting stronger and applying himself to the X's of basketball. I'm not expecting Okafor to change his personality.

Okafor's been what he is for all his life now. He's been the low post savant who can hang 25-30 points on you with efficiency from the field. The guy's never thought twice about defense, though. All this defensive potential I keep hearing is nice in theory, but realistically, he's never going to be anything better than average on that end (and that's with improvement) because he doesn't believe he needs to be. Yes, he has the size and length to be a good defender, but why didn't we see it in college when he was playing against inferior competition? The real reason is because Jahlil just didn't care. He didn't hustle back on defense, he didn't move his feet, he didn't contest shots at the rim, he didn't grab defensive rebounds (an underrate weakness of his), etc. It's not going to get any easier in the NBA, I can promise you that.

Okafor didn't have WCS to help him out.

But he did have Justise Winslow and Amile Jefferson, two above average defenders in their own right. The whole "Towns had WCS to help him" narrative is a bit played out at this point.

Does Flip feel he can develop Okafor into a defender easier than he can develop Towns into an offensive force, or vise versa. Time will tell.

Towns already is an offensive force, though. He's just not elite at one area yet on that side of the floor. He already is a very good passer (better than Okafor), he already is a good shooter (from the FT line and perimeter), he does have a good handle for a big, he's got a competent post game (hooks over both shoulders, running hooks, drop step in each box, fade-away jumper in spurts). Towns just isn't refined yet. The skill is there, though. For the most part, Okafor is a huge project defensively. That's where the question that you asked is lopsided in Towns' favor. It's going to take much less work to turn Towns into a great big than it is Okafor mainly because he's already advanced in so many areas. Okafor's elite, ELITE, at one thing (low-post) and very good at another (passing). After that, though, it's a lot of improvement that you're [all JO supporters] banking on to happen.

The first part of this post is just sad. You sound like a fortune teller who has also known Okafor his whole life. Stick to arguments that have real substance, not an opinion you want people to believe is a fact.

Then at the end you say Okafor supporters are banking on improvement, well that is exactly what you do with Towns as there are actually more questions about his play than Okafors. I don't expect you to accept that, but its true. This debate for #1 is 4 players neck to neck, not a clear cut favorite like you want it to be. The reality is Okafor is the safer pick. He was highlighted at duke, was elite on offense, and serviceable on D. It is very fair to expect him to improve on D, especially when you consider there is some truth to him being needed on the court so he avoided fouls.

Towns on the other hand was protected and not highlighted. He had the benefit of being pulled on a bad night, and being able to guard the worse of the 2 opposing offensive post players. In reality, you're banking on towns to improve is outside shooting, his D, his low post game, and doing it all for 30 mins a game.

I'll be fine with Russell, towns, Okafor, or mudiay. It just absolutely has to be the best player available, no need taken into account. I'm no NBA scout, and won't claim to know better than they do. I do believe we will pick the correct player for once.

Another case for Okafor hinges solely on ensuring we get Tyus Jones as well.

Let's be honest, nobody likes coming to Minnesota. Its as if they hear horror stories about here, and avoid it like the plague. The media hardly even touches on subjects here. Vets rarely sign and young players want to leave. Wiggins seems to actually like it here and wants to stay. If you were to pick the best buds in this draft, one of which is arguably the best player, then you may actually solidify keeping a core of Okafor, Jones, and Wiggins here for many many years. Unfortunately, that is something Minnesota may have to consider.

Rubiooooooo wrote:Another case for Okafor hinges solely on ensuring we get Tyus Jones as well.

Let's be honest, nobody likes coming to Minnesota. Its as if they hear horror stories about here, and avoid it like the plague. The media hardly even touches on subjects here. Vets rarely sign and young players want to leave. Wiggins seems to actually like it here and wants to stay. If you were to pick the best buds in this draft, one of which is arguably the best player, then you may actually solidify keeping a core of Okafor, Jones, and Wiggins here for many many years. Unfortunately, that is something Minnesota may have to consider.

If the team is good you will keep Okafor. He is from Chicago so the cold won't bother him as much. Now getting Jones as insurance for Rubio is a prudent basketball move in and of itself. Making moves to keep a guy from leaving didn't work for Cleveland the first go around or Miami. If a guy wants out they will leave.