Minnesota Sports Forum

Khans, you seem adamant that Cleveland won the trade. Would you swap back now?

khans2k5 wrote:
And Cleveland wouldn't have had the 40 MPG/20PPG version of Wiggins. If you're gonna argue Love isn't the same as a third option versus when he was here, is it not fair to do the same to Wiggins? Are you gonna cut all of Wiggins stats by the same percentage as Love's drop or just use the convenient our #1 option versus their #3 option as to why our guy would have been better than theirs playing the #3 role?

You keep missing my point. The Cavs didn't need a #1. They have LeBron. They didn't need a #2. They have Kyrie. All they needed was a #3. Love did a solid job as a #3. But that's a lot money to pay someone for being 3rd option. How would Wiggins have fared over there? We'll never know. But I wouldn't be so quick to say he couldn't have also contributed to that team as a 3rd option. Wiggins spent the whole year guarding the other teams' best player. And from probably Mid-December until April, Wiggins played some damn good ball overall. I wouldn't trade back myself.

Shumway wrote:Khans, you seem adamant that Cleveland won the trade. Would you swap back now?

What I would prefer has no bearing on who actually won the trade. If I was a Cleveland fan I would rather have Love because he's gonna help me win a title more than Wiggins for a couple more years. As a MN fan I would build around Wiggins. But if we got to keep Towns, I would absolutely trade back because that's the kind of player we needed to pair up with Love to continue to be an elite offensive team with a good enough defense to get stops when needed. Love is locked up to a current cap max deal with a huge jump in the cap coming in the next two years to make a move to round out the wing defense. Imagine the team we had during Ricky's last full season with today's version of Bazz, Lavine, Dieng and Towns instead of JJ, Bud, DC and Shved as the bench. Those 30 point leads wouldn't disappear nearly as often.

Ricky/Lavine/Bazz/Love/Towns>Ricky/Lavine/Wiggins/NA/Towns for the next few years in my opinion.

Carlos Danger wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:
And Cleveland wouldn't have had the 40 MPG/20PPG version of Wiggins. If you're gonna argue Love isn't the same as a third option versus when he was here, is it not fair to do the same to Wiggins? Are you gonna cut all of Wiggins stats by the same percentage as Love's drop or just use the convenient our #1 option versus their #3 option as to why our guy would have been better than theirs playing the #3 role?

You keep missing my point. The Cavs didn't need a #1. They have LeBron. They didn't need a #2. They have Kyrie. All they needed was a #3. Love did a solid job as a #3. But that's a lot money to pay someone for being 3rd option. How would Wiggins have fared over there? We'll never know. But I wouldn't be so quick to say he couldn't have also contributed to that team as a 3rd option. Wiggins spent the whole year guarding the other teams' best player. And from probably Mid-December until April, Wiggins played some damn good ball overall. I wouldn't trade back myself.

You keep missing my point. Wiggins' development is not the same as a third option in Cleveland as it is a number 1 option here. The guy you mention from mid-December to April for us is not the same guy Cleveland gets during that same time frame. He doesn't get the touches to develop his post game and get to the line more and more every month. Shumpert was a better fit for them as a defender and 3pt shooter than Wiggins would have been as a learning defender who hadn't developed a 3pt shot yet. Cleveland's problem in the finals wasn't defense. It was offense and Wiggins wouldn't have been able to develop the same offense throughout the year that he was able to develop as the guy on our team. So not only does he likely not have the same arsenal, but he has to try to beat Klay night in and night out to be a good enough #2 option for them to win anymore games than they did. It's just not happening.

khans2k5 wrote:

Shumway wrote:Khans, you seem adamant that Cleveland won the trade. Would you swap back now?

What I would prefer has no bearing on who actually won the trade. If I was a Cleveland fan I would rather have Love because he's gonna help me win a title more than Wiggins for a couple more years. As a MN fan I would build around Wiggins. But if we got to keep Towns, I would absolutely trade back because that's the kind of player we needed to pair up with Love to continue to be an elite offensive team with a good enough defense to get stops when needed. Love is locked up to a current cap max deal with a huge jump in the cap coming in the next two years to make a move to round out the wing defense. Imagine the team we had during Ricky's last full season with today's version of Bazz, Lavine, Dieng and Towns instead of JJ, Bud, DC and Shved as the bench. Those 30 point leads wouldn't disappear nearly as often.

Ricky/Lavine/Bazz/Love/Towns>Ricky/Lavine/Wiggins/NA/Towns for the next few years in my opinion.

Fair enough. I'd definitely be keeping Wiggins. I still feel like the basketball gods have finally turned in our favour by allowing us to receive Wiggins in the trade (and then to win the lottery this year). But I can respect different opinions.

It'll be fun to continue revisiting this trade in the future. Clearly, those of us who feel we won the trade are basing it on a combination of the hope of Wiggins potential and the belief that Love is a nice player, but not enough of a difference maker. i sure we all really hope that in years to come, Wiggins will fulfil that potential and make the trade an absolute no brainer for the Wolves.

Shumway wrote:It'll be fun to continue revisiting this trade in the future. Clearly, those of us who feel we won the trade are basing it on a combination of the hope of Wiggins potential and the belief that Love is a nice player, but not enough of a difference maker. i sure we all really hope that in years to come, Wiggins will fulfil that potential and make the trade an absolute no brainer for the Wolves.

I'll end my argument with this for those who believe Love is good, but not much of an impact player. In 2013-14 he was statistically the 3rd most valuable player in the league only behind Durant and Lebron. He was third in the entire league in win shares and estimated wins added. Win share take into account both offensive and defensive impact so even though he's not a great defender, he was so good offensively that he ended up as the third most impactful player in the league. I hope Wiggins can get to that level, but we traded away statistically the third most valuable player in the entire league at the end of the day. I'd give arguers AD and Steph over him this past year, but I think he still would have statistically been around a top 5 player in the league. That's why I would trade back if we could keep Towns, because Wiggins has a long ways to go to reach that level of production if he ever does. We'll see if his offensive and defensive win shares combined can net him a similar or bigger impact than Love. It's a very tall task in my opinion given how good Love was for us.

khans2k5 wrote:
You keep missing my point. Wiggins' development is not the same as a third option in Cleveland as it is a number 1 option here. The guy you mention from mid-December to April for us is not the same guy Cleveland gets during that same time frame. He doesn't get the touches to develop his post game and get to the line more and more every month. Shumpert was a better fit for them as a defender and 3pt shooter than Wiggins would have been as a learning defender who hadn't developed a 3pt shot yet. Cleveland's problem in the finals wasn't defense. It was offense and Wiggins wouldn't have been able to develop the same offense throughout the year that he was able to develop as the guy on our team. So not only does he likely not have the same arsenal, but he has to try to beat Klay night in and night out to be a good enough #2 option for them to win anymore games than they did. It's just not happening.

We have no idea how Wiggins would have developed over there. I understand your point that more touches here may have helped him. But we don't know that. It's just as possible that playing with LeBron and Kyrie could have helped his game more vs. playing with Mo Williams and Chase Budinger. There certainly would have been less pressure on him. His efficiency probably goes up in that situation as he wouldn't be asked to do as much as he was here. And once again, I believe the reason the Cavs lost in the finals was because Kyrie went down - not because they missed Love's scoring. They blew past the Bulls and the Hawks by going 8-2 without Kevin Love's scoring. We see it differently. Let's move on.

Carlos Danger wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:
You keep missing my point. Wiggins' development is not the same as a third option in Cleveland as it is a number 1 option here. The guy you mention from mid-December to April for us is not the same guy Cleveland gets during that same time frame. He doesn't get the touches to develop his post game and get to the line more and more every month. Shumpert was a better fit for them as a defender and 3pt shooter than Wiggins would have been as a learning defender who hadn't developed a 3pt shot yet. Cleveland's problem in the finals wasn't defense. It was offense and Wiggins wouldn't have been able to develop the same offense throughout the year that he was able to develop as the guy on our team. So not only does he likely not have the same arsenal, but he has to try to beat Klay night in and night out to be a good enough #2 option for them to win anymore games than they did. It's just not happening.

We have no idea how Wiggins would have developed over there. I understand your point that more touches here may have helped him. But we don't know that. It's just as possible that playing with LeBron and Kyrie could have helped his game more vs. playing with Mo Williams and Chase Budinger. There certainly would have been less pressure on him. His efficiency probably goes up in that situation as he wouldn't be asked to do as much as he was here. And once again, I believe the reason the Cavs lost in the finals was because Kyrie went down - not because they missed Love's scoring. They blew past the Bulls and the Hawks by going 8-2 without Kevin Love's scoring. We see it differently. Let's move on.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread......Wiggins played a long stretch of games in February and March - well after he broke through the initial rookie nerves - with Ricky and Kevin Martin. Granted, they aren't Kyrie and LeBron, but he certainly had a lot less pressure on him to be the focal point of the offense with these two starting next to him. Nothing changed. His efficiency did not go up at all. In fact, he shot 16% from 3 during that timeframe. His rebounding didn't go up. So to me that is solid evidence that it probably would have been a similar outcome in Cleveland.

The reason Love trumps Wiggins as a #3 option last year is because of efficiency and rebounding. Love was clearly the more efficient player and his rebounding allowed him to impact games when not scoring. Wiggins might be the superior one-on-one defender, but we saw flashes of great defense from him, not a consistent performance. Advanced stats (such as ESPN's Real plus-minus) are not kind to Wiggins when it comes to his defense.

I'm with Kahns: BOTH teams won this trade as of right now. We'll see how things pan out over the next few years.

Q12543 wrote:
I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread......Wiggins played a long stretch of games in February and March - well after he broke through the initial rookie nerves - with Ricky and Kevin Martin. Granted, they aren't Kyrie and LeBron, but he certainly had a lot less pressure on him to be the focal point of the offense with these two starting next to him. Nothing changed. His efficiency did not go up at all. In fact, he shot 16% from 3 during that timeframe. His rebounding didn't go up. So to me that is solid evidence that it probably would have been a similar outcome in Cleveland.

Right. And almost every single part of Wiggins game improved with the exception of 3 pt shooting after All Star Break:

Mins - up
FGA - up
FG% - up
FTA - up
FT% - up
OR - up
DR - up
TRB - up
Ast - up
Blk - up
pts - up