Revisiting the Kevin Love trade one year later

[bleedspeed]

http://www.fearthesword.com/2015/8/22/9191253/revisiting-the-kevin-love-trade-a-year-later

It is the Cavs take, but I still think we smoked them.

[Monster]

It's hard to imagine a better return for Love than Wiggins. I was watching highlights from his rookie year and some of the things he is able to do as a 19 year old rookie are amazing. The footwork on those step backs, the advanced post game including reading the defense from there, ability to use his incredible physical gifts get to the basket for ridiculous dunks and showing plenty on the defensive side of the ball make for a guy it's incredibly hard not to be extremely excited about. He is a guy I think is going to be a star and has plenty of skill that he will age well also.

To me part of the outcome of this trade for the Cavs goes beyond Love. What do the Cavs end up with On the wing for the next few years? Will Shumpert be able to be an elite 3 and D guy? If so and Love stays mostly healthy and does his thing the trade looks pretty good. If the Cavs kinda limp along at that other wing position then Love has to be really good if Wiggins blows up.

It's still a little early to say if either team won but it's tough not to say the Wolves won for themselves I think a year from now it will be a lot more clear for both teams. It's tough not to feel like the Wolves won for themselves in this deal though.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I take a different perspective than most on this, because I find the deal positive for the Wolves both because of the addition of Wiggins, but also because of the subtraction of Love. Here's how I see it:

1) Wiggins exceeded my expectations in his first year. While his stats were typical rookie inefficient, he was still productive. And he definitely showed he has the potential to be a star in the NBA, excelling both on offense and defense.

2) Love was a very productive offensive player and rebounder for the Wolves, but his defense and attitude bugged me, and he never showed me that he was the kind of player to lead a team to success. When I say trading Love was addition by subtraction, I'm not saying the Wolves were better last year without him. If Love had stayed with the Wolves and been the featured offensive player for 75 games, he probably would have put up 24 and 12 again and, even with all the Wolves injuries, we probably would have won 25 games. And not won the lottery. So you can perhaps argue that trading Love for a rookie got us both Wiggins and Towns. Now that's what I call addition by subtraction!

I don't care as much about what the trade means for the Cavs, but I definitely think we beat them on the trade. Yes, the Cavs made it to the Championship series, but any team with LeBron on it should get there, and not winning the championship has to be considered a big disappointment. If they win the championship this year, I would reconsider my position, but time is not on LeBron's side, so they need to win their championship soon. Love's tendency to get injured also is a negative for the Cavs. He played in 77 and 75 games the past two years, but he was admittedly slowed during last season by back and knee issues (which tend to be chronic) and of course missed most of the playoffs. And the two previous seasons he only played 55 and 18 games.

[TeamRicky [enjin:6648771]]

I also think it was an amazing deal for us. Wiggins has the look and all the tools to be a superstar in this league, and we get Karl with all his potential too. Couldn't have asked for a better return out of Love.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

So Cleveland makes it to the finals and we post the worst record in the league and we win the trade after year 1? Come on. Wiggins has to carry us to the playoffs for this to even be a conversation at any point. I get that people like Wiggins and how he plays more than Love, but that's not enough to win a trade. The results in the W-L column are what decide who wins a trade and right now we aren't even close to them. They're playing for titles and we're just hoping to make the playoffs. How about we wait until Wiggins actually attains star status before we just give it to him and call it a win?

[bleedspeed]

I think the Cavs would have been better with Wiggins then Love. Could have the Cavs won a title with Wiggins last year? I think he was an upgrade over anyone else they started at SG. TT replaced Love pretty well in the starting lineup.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

So Cleveland makes it to the finals and we post the worst record in the league and we win the trade after year 1? Come on. Wiggins has to carry us to the playoffs for this to even be a conversation at any point. I get that people like Wiggins and how he plays more than Love, but that's not enough to win a trade. The results in the W-L column are what decide who wins a trade and right now we aren't even close to them. They're playing for titles and we're just hoping to make the playoffs. How about we wait until Wiggins actually attains star status before we just give it to him and call it a win?

I'd call it a win as far as the possible return you could of got, but you are absolutely right. Who knows, maybe Wiggins turns out be injury prone to the point where he never sees his potential ala Grant Hill or T-mac. Throw in a title or two for the Cavs and all of a sudden the Wolves lost big time

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

So Cleveland makes it to the finals and we post the worst record in the league and we win the trade after year 1? Come on. Wiggins has to carry us to the playoffs for this to even be a conversation at any point. I get that people like Wiggins and how he plays more than Love, but that's not enough to win a trade. The results in the W-L column are what decide who wins a trade and right now we aren't even close to them. They're playing for titles and we're just hoping to make the playoffs. How about we wait until Wiggins actually attains star status before we just give it to him and call it a win?

Khans, I agree with you that you can't call the Wolves the winner of the trade based on last year's results. We won't know who really won this trade for a few years, but I think we are speculating now on who will be the ultimate winner. The Cavs easily won the trade if the only way to measure who wins a trade is wins and losses in the first year after the trade. But I think it's much deeper than that, and that in 3-4 years we will look at this trade as a watershed moment for this franchise.

Yes, Cleveland made the finals, but was that a result of the trade? The fact that this was the 5th consecutive year LeBron made it to the finals tells me making it to the finals is becoming his floor...his goal has to be to win it all every year. I think Cleveland expected to win the championship last year, and mortgaged their future to get there. Losing in the finals had to fell pretty bad after giving up a guy like Wiggins.

As for the Wolves, they were a terrible team last year. But with Rubio, Pek, Shabazz and Martin hurt much of the year, they were going to be a terrible team anyway...even if Love had stayed. But how satisfied would be have been on this board with 25 wins and the 6th pick in the draft (hello Willy Cauley-Stein)? In a way this argument is unfair, because Flip didn't make the trade (and the subsequent trade for Young) in an effort to get the top pick...I think he thought he had a playoff team. But we have the benefit of hindsight one year later, and it seems that trading an all-star for a rookie (albeit a future all-star) was a key factor in our getting the top pick.

So, even though we can't make a final determination yet as to who won, all signs are pointing toward the Wolves. Since LeBron in the prime of his career makes it to the finals every year anyway, there is no tangible evidence that obtaining Love moved the needle at all for them. On the other hand, the Wolves got Wiggins directly from the trade, and Towns indirectly...two incredible cornerstones for a dramatic turnaround. Now, if both Wiggins and Towns turn out to be busts and the Cavs win a championship this
year, I will call this a clear win for the Cavs. I don't see those events happening though.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think both teams won the trade by getting a player that matched the circumstances each team found themselves in last summer. A true win-win trade.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

So Cleveland makes it to the finals and we post the worst record in the league and we win the trade after year 1? Come on. Wiggins has to carry us to the playoffs for this to even be a conversation at any point. I get that people like Wiggins and how he plays more than Love, but that's not enough to win a trade. The results in the W-L column are what decide who wins a trade and right now we aren't even close to them. They're playing for titles and we're just hoping to make the playoffs. How about we wait until Wiggins actually attains star status before we just give it to him and call it a win?

Khans, I agree with you that you can't call the Wolves the winner of the trade based on last year's results. We won't know who really won this trade for a few years, but I think we are speculating now on who will be the ultimate winner. The Cavs easily won the trade if the only way to measure who wins a trade is wins and losses in the first year after the trade. But I think it's much deeper than that, and that in 3-4 years we will look at this trade as a watershed moment for this franchise.

Yes, Cleveland made the finals, but was that a result of the trade? The fact that this was the 5th consecutive year LeBron made it to the finals tells me making it to the finals is becoming his floor...his goal has to be to win it all every year. I think Cleveland expected to win the championship last year, and mortgaged their future to get there. Losing in the finals had to fell pretty bad after giving up a guy like Wiggins.

As for the Wolves, they were a terrible team last year. But with Rubio, Pek, Shabazz and Martin hurt much of the year, they were going to be a terrible team anyway...even if Love had stayed. But how satisfied would be have been on this board with 25 wins and the 6th pick in the draft (hello Willy Cauley-Stein)? In a way this argument is unfair, because Flip didn't make the trade (and the subsequent trade for Young) in an effort to get the top pick...I think he thought he had a playoff team. But we have the benefit of hindsight one year later, and it seems that trading an all-star for a rookie (albeit a future all-star) was a key factor in our getting the top pick.

So, even though we can't make a final determination yet as to who won, all signs are pointing toward the Wolves. Since LeBron in the prime of his career makes it to the finals every year anyway, there is no tangible evidence that obtaining Love moved the needle at all for them. On the other hand, the Wolves got Wiggins directly from the trade, and Towns indirectly...two incredible cornerstones for a dramatic turnaround. Now, if both Wiggins and Towns turn out to be busts and the Cavs win a championship this
year, I will call this a clear win for the Cavs. I don't see those events happening though.

1. If Cleveland wins even 1 title with Love and we win none with Wiggins, I don't see how we "win" the trade or to phrase it better, beat them in the trade. Obviously TT isn't good enough as a support piece for them to win a title so winning one with Love will be partially because of his upgrade over TT. Wiggins can become a franchise guy for us, but we still don't win the trade if they win a title and we don't. The ultimate goal of every GM is to win a title, not build a perennial contender.

2. Wiggins doesn't end up on the same development path playing 3rd fiddle on Cleveland all year as he did 1st fiddle for us. He wouldn't have been enough as a second fiddle in the title series to win them the series. How could he have played off the ball all year to Lebron and Kyrie and then been good at being a secondary ball handler/shot creator in the finals against Klay Thomson and the best defense in the league? He got better because we gave him the opportunity to improve quickly. He just doesn't get that same opportunity in Cleveland. He also wasn't a significant upgrade defensively over Shumpert who may not end up on the team if they keep Wiggins.

3. The tangible evidence that Love moved the needle for them was their God squad status post All-Star break where they only lost like 3 games and then they proceeded to lose in the finals without him. Lebron lost in the finals without Love and Kyrie so if they win one with them, obviously Love and Kyrie move the needle for their team.

4. Personal feelings just don't matter when determining who wins a trade. I think it was a win-win trade given what both teams needed, but there is also a specific criteria that needs to be met to say we officially beat them in the trade and that involves our team outperforming theirs while Wiggins is a Wolf. We lost year 1 and have the next 4 years (possibly more) to try to outperform them. Also if Wiggins ends up being a more impactful player than Love, we still don't automatically win the trade if we don't outperform them. That just means we got better which is a nice consolation prize, but doesn't meet the trade winning criteria.

We came out of the trade "a" winner. I just don't like it when people say or strongly suggest we will be/already are "the" winner of the trade. Right now it's just not all that close to be saying that.