I won't rehash the sordid history of the Wolves defensive problems, but let's just say it's been a perennial problem for nearly a decade now and it's largely the single biggest reason why this franchise has struggled so much (with 3-point shooting being the 2nd biggest reason) and why Vegas thinks we will only win 34 games. I believe the problem is largely an entrenched culture of lip service to defense, but rarely sustaining discipline and effort on that end over the course of an entire season. We've seen multiple players and coaches and schemes come through here with no impact, which leads me to believe it's culture.
Having said that, in tuning into some of the various Wolves pundits lately, it sounds like Finch is going to be making a fairly substantial change to his defensive scheme. Instead of drop coverage or constant switching, he is going to look at his bigs to stay up on pick and rolls and then expect backside help to protect the rim, assuming the big can't get back to his man after the other guy defending the ball handler recovers from the screen. This is a more active defense in that it requires more movement and rotation among the players. It also takes better advantage of our mobility and length.
The tradeoff of course is more open 3s because if our big stays up, it makes it easier for the screener to slip into the paint for an open dunk. That means our baseline defenders need to come off their guy to cover the roll-man, leaving the corner open. That's where awareness and rotation matters with other guys not involved in the PnR action rotating to close out on the shooter.
Thoughts on this scheme or your expectations overall for the Wolves defense this year?
This Year's Defense
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: This Year's Defense
This type of scheme utilizes Karl-Anthony Towns' agility on the perimeter a lot more and forces him to get involved in a way that could be beneficial to the team -- versus making him sit back and react to the offense in drop coverage, which he clearly struggled with. They'll still play drop coverage occasionally, but I expect it to be less frequent than in years past. Minnesota also has the length and athleticism to fly around the court making those rotations and covering for each other. Jarred Vanderbilt and Jaden McDaniels are going to be integral pieces to making the defense passable regardless of scheme, but I like the fit for them as well. Obviously, things go to shit if there's bad communication or injuries decimate the team, but the scheme fits the personnel much better in theory.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: This Year's Defense
I agree Cam, that "in theory", it's a better scheme for their personnel. But I'm skeptical that it really leads to any tangible improvement until they prove otherwise. They have tried everything in the book these past few years with zero success other than short bursts of defensive competency that never lasts beyond 10 games or so.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: This Year's Defense
Scheme is largely irrelevant to me. Obviously, many different coaches have had their own unique takes on defensive schemes. It's about the players buying in. It's about accountability.
It's especially dangerous when the coach essentially says everybody has to buy in and everything has to go right just to be "mediocre" or close to average.
Once again, I envision defense being this team's primary problem. In large part, because the players on the roster don't give me much hope.
Towns has been here for 6 seasons, with him being the most important player on the team for most of that time. And the Wolves have been poor defensively for 6 years.
Russell has shown to be a lazy, inattentive defender. In fact, it has been laughably bad for stretches in a Wolves uniform. Year after year. It's very easy to say that the one season where he was "ok" is the outlier.
Edwards was also laughably poor with effort defensively for large chunks of last season. But his problem goes beyond effort. He's young. Immature. And new to the NBA game. It takes time and experience to learn schemes and everything else.
Beasley might run around quickly on the court, conveying a certain level of effort. But he's a subpar defender any way you slice it. And that goes back to the concern with Edwards that playing NBA defense doesn't come naturally to young guys who don't really know what they're doing.
...
Those will be arguably the team's 4 leading mpg players.
...
McDaniels impressed all of us with his defense last season. Will he take the next step? Will he be stuck playing undersized at the 4? They were historically bad with him impressing us, so...
Vanderbilt has shown some defensive chops, in large part because of effort. But will he get to stay on the floor if he's a liability on offense?
Okogie is the smaller version of Vanderbilt. Again, it comes with a trade-off.
Beverley certainly has a reputation as a defensive stalwart. But he's 33 and if recent history is any indication, he's going to miss quite a few games.
Prince is not a good defender. He's serviceable at best... only he might be playing small as the de facto 4. Heck, Finch even mentioned him playing the 5 in certain lineups. Yikes.
Reid, McLaughlin, Layman, Bolmaro, et al. Any confidence in any of those guys actually making a positive difference on defense? It doesn't really matter anyway when the top four guys on the team are going to be somewhere between "embarrassingly terrible" and "average." And just to reach "average"... they'd have to improve.
It's especially dangerous when the coach essentially says everybody has to buy in and everything has to go right just to be "mediocre" or close to average.
Once again, I envision defense being this team's primary problem. In large part, because the players on the roster don't give me much hope.
Towns has been here for 6 seasons, with him being the most important player on the team for most of that time. And the Wolves have been poor defensively for 6 years.
Russell has shown to be a lazy, inattentive defender. In fact, it has been laughably bad for stretches in a Wolves uniform. Year after year. It's very easy to say that the one season where he was "ok" is the outlier.
Edwards was also laughably poor with effort defensively for large chunks of last season. But his problem goes beyond effort. He's young. Immature. And new to the NBA game. It takes time and experience to learn schemes and everything else.
Beasley might run around quickly on the court, conveying a certain level of effort. But he's a subpar defender any way you slice it. And that goes back to the concern with Edwards that playing NBA defense doesn't come naturally to young guys who don't really know what they're doing.
...
Those will be arguably the team's 4 leading mpg players.
...
McDaniels impressed all of us with his defense last season. Will he take the next step? Will he be stuck playing undersized at the 4? They were historically bad with him impressing us, so...
Vanderbilt has shown some defensive chops, in large part because of effort. But will he get to stay on the floor if he's a liability on offense?
Okogie is the smaller version of Vanderbilt. Again, it comes with a trade-off.
Beverley certainly has a reputation as a defensive stalwart. But he's 33 and if recent history is any indication, he's going to miss quite a few games.
Prince is not a good defender. He's serviceable at best... only he might be playing small as the de facto 4. Heck, Finch even mentioned him playing the 5 in certain lineups. Yikes.
Reid, McLaughlin, Layman, Bolmaro, et al. Any confidence in any of those guys actually making a positive difference on defense? It doesn't really matter anyway when the top four guys on the team are going to be somewhere between "embarrassingly terrible" and "average." And just to reach "average"... they'd have to improve.
Re: This Year's Defense
The scheme makes sense to me as Cam has pointed out it fits Towns strengths better.
The reality? It can't get much worse than what we have seen the past few years. I think having a defense that in general is more aggressive than passive is probably a good thing for a young roster. Get them more engaged on that end.
The one thing all the coaches and some players have been saying is that they need to give effort. Blair said it was about effort Finch too and Turner also.
I'll also add that one thing the Wolves may have going for them is that they have some guys on the perimeter that are either lengthy for their position or have some legit bulk. To many times over the last few years the Wolves simply didn't have physicality to get after teams.
The other problem a number of years was they didn't have a mobile guy to guard perimeter 4's. That shouldn't be as much of a problem with the group they have now.
I also think that the Wolves defense could make strides in being effective or less of a liability even if the numbers don't look all that favorable. Can they find something they do well on that end and be consistent? A few years ago they had a group of guys that were likely to fly around and get a bunch of steals. Injuries decimated that group but I thought they could have caused some havoc on teams at least. What could be a strength for this group and can Finch and the coaching staff utilize that?
The reality? It can't get much worse than what we have seen the past few years. I think having a defense that in general is more aggressive than passive is probably a good thing for a young roster. Get them more engaged on that end.
The one thing all the coaches and some players have been saying is that they need to give effort. Blair said it was about effort Finch too and Turner also.
I'll also add that one thing the Wolves may have going for them is that they have some guys on the perimeter that are either lengthy for their position or have some legit bulk. To many times over the last few years the Wolves simply didn't have physicality to get after teams.
The other problem a number of years was they didn't have a mobile guy to guard perimeter 4's. That shouldn't be as much of a problem with the group they have now.
I also think that the Wolves defense could make strides in being effective or less of a liability even if the numbers don't look all that favorable. Can they find something they do well on that end and be consistent? A few years ago they had a group of guys that were likely to fly around and get a bunch of steals. Injuries decimated that group but I thought they could have caused some havoc on teams at least. What could be a strength for this group and can Finch and the coaching staff utilize that?
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: This Year's Defense
I'm sure this will be scoffed at, but being better offensively will have an impact on their defensive rankings. Note that Minnesota was in the basement in both categories last year primarily due to injuries and a moronic head coach for half the season. When a team is clanking shots, especially three-pointers, and turning the ball over, it sparks the opposing team's fast break opportunities and Minnesota gets killed in transition. They need to be able to set up their defense with the other team taking the ball out from under the basket. Not to mention, Minnesota's been a bottom level team rebounding the ball, especially defensively. They have to end other team's possessions and not give up second and third chance points.
- Score more efficiently
- Rebound the basketball
- Limit their own turnovers
- Force turnovers
And the last one should be an easy one. Play with adequate size on the floor. Minnesota doesn't have a big roster in the traditional sense, which means they also can't afford to intentionally play even smaller because of some vision. That means not playing Josh Okogie or Anthony Edwards at the four. That's a recipe for disaster. They're already going to be at a disadvantage by utilizing Taurean Prince and Jaden McDaniels there at times. They cannot make that issue even worse by mismanaging lineups.
- Score more efficiently
- Rebound the basketball
- Limit their own turnovers
- Force turnovers
And the last one should be an easy one. Play with adequate size on the floor. Minnesota doesn't have a big roster in the traditional sense, which means they also can't afford to intentionally play even smaller because of some vision. That means not playing Josh Okogie or Anthony Edwards at the four. That's a recipe for disaster. They're already going to be at a disadvantage by utilizing Taurean Prince and Jaden McDaniels there at times. They cannot make that issue even worse by mismanaging lineups.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
- Posts: 13844
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 am
Re: This Year's Defense
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Scheme is largely irrelevant to me. Obviously, many different coaches have had their own unique takes on defensive schemes. It's about the players buying in. It's about accountability.
It's especially dangerous when the coach essentially says everybody has to buy in and everything has to go right just to be "mediocre" or close to average.
Once again, I envision defense being this team's primary problem. In large part, because the players on the roster don't give me much hope.
Towns has been here for 6 seasons, with him being the most important player on the team for most of that time. And the Wolves have been poor defensively for 6 years.
Russell has shown to be a lazy, inattentive defender. In fact, it has been laughably bad for stretches in a Wolves uniform. Year after year. It's very easy to say that the one season where he was "ok" is the outlier.
Edwards was also laughably poor with effort defensively for large chunks of last season. But his problem goes beyond effort. He's young. Immature. And new to the NBA game. It takes time and experience to learn schemes and everything else.
Beasley might run around quickly on the court, conveying a certain level of effort. But he's a subpar defender any way you slice it. And that goes back to the concern with Edwards that playing NBA defense doesn't come naturally to young guys who don't really know what they're doing.
...
Those will be arguably the team's 4 leading mpg players.
...
McDaniels impressed all of us with his defense last season. Will he take the next step? Will he be stuck playing undersized at the 4? They were historically bad with him impressing us, so...
Vanderbilt has shown some defensive chops, in large part because of effort. But will he get to stay on the floor if he's a liability on offense?
Okogie is the smaller version of Vanderbilt. Again, it comes with a trade-off.
Beverley certainly has a reputation as a defensive stalwart. But he's 33 and if recent history is any indication, he's going to miss quite a few games.
Prince is not a good defender. He's serviceable at best... only he might be playing small as the de facto 4. Heck, Finch even mentioned him playing the 5 in certain lineups. Yikes.
Reid, McLaughlin, Layman, Bolmaro, et al. Any confidence in any of those guys actually making a positive difference on defense? It doesn't really matter anyway when the top four guys on the team are going to be somewhere between "embarrassingly terrible" and "average." And just to reach "average"... they'd have to improve.
To me, the question is can they get to mediocre, because you're right, there is no freakin' way they can be top 15 with this roster. But can they get to 20th or 21st in D-rtg? I do think coaches and schemes can impact defense more than offense. Witness other coaches walking into a new situation with largely the same roster and seeing dramatic changes in defensive effectiveness (Thibs with the Knicks; Clifford when he first took over at Charlotte a number of years ago), but the Wolves seem to be immune to these sorts of changes!
Re: This Year's Defense
Camden0916 wrote:I'm sure this will be scoffed at, but being better offensively will have an impact on their defensive rankings. Note that Minnesota was in the basement in both categories last year primarily due to injuries and a moronic head coach for half the season. When a team is clanking shots, especially three-pointers, and turning the ball over, it sparks the opposing team's fast break opportunities and Minnesota gets killed in transition. They need to be able to set up their defense with the other team taking the ball out from under the basket. Not to mention, Minnesota's been a bottom level team rebounding the ball, especially defensively. They have to end other team's possessions and not give up second and third chance points.
- Score more efficiently
- Rebound the basketball
- Limit their own turnovers
- Force turnovers
And the last one should be an easy one. Play with adequate size on the floor. Minnesota doesn't have a big roster in the traditional sense, which means they also can't afford to intentionally play even smaller because of some vision. That means not playing Josh Okogie or Anthony Edwards at the four. That's a recipe for disaster. They're already going to be at a disadvantage by utilizing Taurean Prince and Jaden McDaniels there at times. They cannot make that issue even worse by mismanaging lineups.
I'll add to your list improving in transition D. Some of that is just being smart and some of its effort.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
- Posts: 13844
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 am
Re: This Year's Defense
Camden wrote:I'm sure this will be scoffed at, but being better offensively will have an impact on their defensive rankings. Note that Minnesota was in the basement in both categories last year primarily due to injuries and a moronic head coach for half the season. When a team is clanking shots, especially three-pointers, and turning the ball over, it sparks the opposing team's fast break opportunities and Minnesota gets killed in transition. They need to be able to set up their defense with the other team taking the ball out from under the basket. Not to mention, Minnesota's been a bottom level team rebounding the ball, especially defensively. They have to end other team's possessions and not give up second and third chance points.
- Score more efficiently
- Rebound the basketball
- Limit their own turnovers
- Force turnovers
And the last one should be an easy one. Play with adequate size on the floor. Minnesota doesn't have a big roster in the traditional sense, which means they also can't afford to intentionally play even smaller because of some vision. That means not playing Josh Okogie or Anthony Edwards at the four. That's a recipe for disaster. They're already going to be at a disadvantage by utilizing Taurean Prince and Jaden McDaniels there at times. They cannot make that issue even worse by mismanaging lineups.
I agree that they are probably set up well to have a positive turnover differential (they were actually 5th in the league last year in creating turnovers and I don't see that going down), but doing that well pales in comparison opponent eFG%, where they were 28th. Obviously the inability to limit the efficient shooting of our opponents had way more of an impact on our defensive rating than our ability to create turnovers.
I think you're right that there is somewhat of a symbiotic relationship between good offense and better defense, but just not sure if that will be enough to get us out of the bottom 5 defensively.
Re: This Year's Defense
Great thread. I agree with Q that the goal at this point should be upgrading from the second-worst defensive team in the League to mediocre. That goal is both necessary to this team's chances of making the playoffs and reasonable. I think it's a reasonable goal for all the reasons discussed so far. I think it's the cumulative impact of all those things:
1. Defensive accountability. Q's right that there's been a lack of defensive accountability that has fostered a poor defensive culture for many years. So far, it looks like Finch is all about accountability and doesn't shy away from holding players, even elite players, accountable. I expect that to continue.
2. Defensive scheme. I get Abe's view that scheme is irrelevant, but I think it matters as an important but not decisive factor in defensive improvement. In retrospect, it was this scheme change that likely drove Blair to make a surprise lateral move to the Wizards. Blair was all about switching and that's clearly not the direction Finch wanted to go. In contrast, Turner has always minimized switching in his coaching. I agree that the scheme Q described will be a better fit for the Wolves personnel, especially KAT. I still remember one of the best games the Wolves have played during the KAT era was against the Warriors near the end of Sam Mitchell's season. You might recall that Sam did not have KAT in drop coverage, but had him stay out on Steph Curry. He really frustrated Curry, which is hard to do.
3. More rotation defenders. The Wolves have added an elite defender to the rotation with the acquisition of Beverley. In basketball, one player can make a major difference. Vanderbilt wasn't in the regular rotation until late in the season and it's likely he'll be in the rotation and potentially a starter from the beginning of this next season. Adding a healthy Prince to the rotation should help as well. Even though isn't a top defender, he's pretty good if healthy and he's apparently healthy again after his ankle surgery a few months ago.
4. Maturation of young players. McDaniels already showed some nice defensive chops as a rookie. He's apparently grown taller and gained weight. Those physical changes plus a full season and off-season of experience should make him a very good defender in the Wolves starting lineup - hopefully at the SF position. Edwards has the physical gifts to be a great defender. He also seems highly competitive and intelligent. I think he'll work hard and be a lot smarter on the defensive end. If Finch holds him accountable, as I think he will, I see Edwards improving significantly on the defensive end. I would expect other very young players like Naz Reid, J-Mac and Nowell to improve defensively as well.
5. Offensive improvement. I'm not going to scoff at Cam's point and I don't think anyone else will either. I think he's absolutely right that improved offense will synergistically improve the team's defense.
How much of an impact any one factor will have on the Wolves defense is hard to gauge. But again, it's not any one factor, but instead the cumulative impact of all these factors that should significantly improve the Wolves defense next season.
1. Defensive accountability. Q's right that there's been a lack of defensive accountability that has fostered a poor defensive culture for many years. So far, it looks like Finch is all about accountability and doesn't shy away from holding players, even elite players, accountable. I expect that to continue.
2. Defensive scheme. I get Abe's view that scheme is irrelevant, but I think it matters as an important but not decisive factor in defensive improvement. In retrospect, it was this scheme change that likely drove Blair to make a surprise lateral move to the Wizards. Blair was all about switching and that's clearly not the direction Finch wanted to go. In contrast, Turner has always minimized switching in his coaching. I agree that the scheme Q described will be a better fit for the Wolves personnel, especially KAT. I still remember one of the best games the Wolves have played during the KAT era was against the Warriors near the end of Sam Mitchell's season. You might recall that Sam did not have KAT in drop coverage, but had him stay out on Steph Curry. He really frustrated Curry, which is hard to do.
3. More rotation defenders. The Wolves have added an elite defender to the rotation with the acquisition of Beverley. In basketball, one player can make a major difference. Vanderbilt wasn't in the regular rotation until late in the season and it's likely he'll be in the rotation and potentially a starter from the beginning of this next season. Adding a healthy Prince to the rotation should help as well. Even though isn't a top defender, he's pretty good if healthy and he's apparently healthy again after his ankle surgery a few months ago.
4. Maturation of young players. McDaniels already showed some nice defensive chops as a rookie. He's apparently grown taller and gained weight. Those physical changes plus a full season and off-season of experience should make him a very good defender in the Wolves starting lineup - hopefully at the SF position. Edwards has the physical gifts to be a great defender. He also seems highly competitive and intelligent. I think he'll work hard and be a lot smarter on the defensive end. If Finch holds him accountable, as I think he will, I see Edwards improving significantly on the defensive end. I would expect other very young players like Naz Reid, J-Mac and Nowell to improve defensively as well.
5. Offensive improvement. I'm not going to scoff at Cam's point and I don't think anyone else will either. I think he's absolutely right that improved offense will synergistically improve the team's defense.
How much of an impact any one factor will have on the Wolves defense is hard to gauge. But again, it's not any one factor, but instead the cumulative impact of all these factors that should significantly improve the Wolves defense next season.