Mark of a Bad NBA Franchise

[Lipoli390]

I'm sure we'd all agree the Wolves have been a poorly run franchise for almost all (perhaps all) of its 30-year history.

Here's a reminder that, they're as bad today as they've even been. The Wolves finished with the 3rd worst record in the NBA this past season. Yet, the Wolves are over the luxury tax and have no first or second round draft picks in 2021 unless they end up with a top 3 pick in that draft, which essentially means no first round pick even if the Wolves end up in the lottery again.

Rosas inherited a sorry state of affairs, but he failed to address the payroll issue and traded away the team's first and second round picks to get Russell. My rule of thumb is that you don't trade first round picks without full lottery protection unless you're already a playoff team or at least on the cusp of making the playoffs - or unless you're acquiring a sure-fire franchise player. The Wolves traded away their 1st round pick with only top 3 protection, which means they essentially traded away their first round pick even if it's a lottery pick. And they also traded away their 2nd round pick for that same year. Not only did the Wolves give up both their 2021 picks for Russell, they also took back $4 million in guaranteed salary for next season in Jacob Evans and Omari Spellman; yet neither player got any playing time with the Wolves after the trade. The Wolves used their 2019 second round pick on Nowell and he put up terrific numbers in the G-Leauge, but he never got an extended run with consistent minutes for the NBA Wolves. As their two signature moves leading up to the trade deadline, the Wolves front office traded for two poor defenders to complete the core of an already terrible defensive team built around a poor defensive big named Karl Anthony Towns. The Wolves also received another poor defender in Hernangomez in the Beasley deal.

Now as I've indicated in other posts, this could all work out. Towns, Russell and Beasley might all improve defensively; they are all still young. Okogie or Culver could emerge as a defensive stopper in the starting lineup. And the Wolves might land a top defender in this season's draft. Or maybe the Wolves will become such an offensive powerhouse that they can become a championship contender - or at least a perennial playoff team -- in spite of poor defense. We'll see.

But the bottom line for me at this point is that the Wolves continue to be a terrible NBA franchise and Rosas has a long way to go if he's going to prove otherwise.

[Monster]

I'm sure we'd all agree the Wolves have been a poorly run franchise for almost all (perhaps all) of its 30-year history.

Here's a reminder that, they're as bad today as they've even been. The Wolves finished with the 3rd worst record in the NBA this past season. Yet, the Wolves are over the luxury tax and have no first or second round draft picks in 2021 unless they end up with a top 3 pick in that draft, which essentially means no first round pick even if the Wolves end up in the lottery again.

Rosas inherited a sorry state of affairs, but he failed to address the payroll issue and traded away the team's first and second round picks to get Russell with the first pick only top 3 protected. My rule of thumb is that you don't trade first round picks without full lottery protection unless you're already a playoff team or at least on the cusp of making the playoffs - or unless you're acquiring a sure-fire franchise player. The Wolves traded away their 1st round pick with only top 3 protection AND they also traded away their 2nd round pick for that same year. Not only did the Wolves give up both their 2021 picks for Russell, they also took back $4 million in guaranteed salary for next season in Jacob Evans and Omari Spellman; yet neither player got any playing time with the Wolves after the trade. The Wolves used their 2019 second round pick on Nowell and he put up terrific numbers in the G-Leauge, but he never got an extended run with consistent minutes for the NBA Wolves. As their two signature moves leading up to the trade deadline, the Wolves front office traded for two poor defenders to complete the core of an already terrible defensive team build around a poor defensive big, KAT. The Wolves also received another poor defender in Hernangomez in the Beasley deal.

Now as I've indicated in other posts, this could all work out. Towns, Russell and Beasley might all improve defensively. They are all still young. Okogie or Culver could emerge as a defensive stopper in the starting lineup. And the Wolves might land a top defender in this season's draft. Or maybe the Wolves will become such an offensive powerhouse that they can become a championship contender - or at least a perennial playoff team -- in spite of poor defense. We'll see.

But the bottom line for me at this point is that the Wolves continue to be a terrible NBA franchise and Rosas has a long way to go if he's going to prove otherwise.

Lip you make some good points. I think it's worth mentioning a few things since you were willing to ding Rosas for adding salary. :)

Wiggins makes just under a million more than Russell. He saved money!!!!

Dieng makes over a million more than James Johnson. He saved money again!!!

Remember many people went into the season saying these were 2 of the worst contracts in basketball we NEEDED to move these guys...and he did.

Now Evans and Spellman their contracts I think it's fair to have them measured against whatever The vet min would be for this upcoming season. We don't know what that number will he and it certainly could be lower than what it has been so that may screw the Wolves a bit (Which could t have been foreseen) but let's just say it's $850,000 it's not exactly a ton of added Salary to take on. In addition there have been plenty of reports out there that if the Wolves waived Spellman he would get picked up quickly by another team which could even happen this season whenever it begins or whatever. So that's salary you can take off the books...possibly. Spellman might even have a bit of value in some sort of trade. We don't know that for sure but it's certainly plausible. He played pretty well for a bad team then went down and balled in the G-league for the Wolves and even if the cap drops he will still be pretty cheap. Basically the Wolves are a couple hundred thousand either way from being in the hole or coming out ahead I salary depending on what would happen with Spellman. Not bad.

So I don't really see a salary thing as a problem especially when Rosas did actually seem to add value with cheap rookies in Naz Reid and J-Mac. Let's see how much Beasley signs for (keep in mind we aren't paying Covington amy more) And to some small extent Hernangomez. If Rosas is able to bring back Beasley on what seems like a pretty reasonable deal then his moves look Even better. Hernangomez is another around the margin type move but if he can be signed for cheap somewhat like we did with Layman last year it could sorta matter. It never hurts to have decent NBA rotation players signed for what they seem to actually be worth.

To me Rosas has done some things that absolutely deserve criticism. Trading up for Culver so far isn't looking great. I'll say he may have been right about Moving Saric when he had some value though so that's a bit of positive in a move that hasn't worked so far.

There are some reasons to have a bit of faith he isn't incompetent. Name the last time you felt as good about an I drafted rookie FA as either Naz Reid or J-MAC and we have 2 of them! Lol let's remember the Grizzlies botched some moves and still were a heck of a squad for a good long run and to some extent aren't even considered that good of an organization from top to bottom...went through how many head coaches etc.

I'm pulling for Ryan Saunders big time but let's be a little honest here. If he isn't the guy and Rosas Keeps him to long and or never hires the right guy or even the right get who moves us towards the next right guy...that's tough to overcome. Coaching matters even in the NBA. The Mavs don't win a championship with Dirk with a mediocre head coach. Who is the worst head coach to win a title in like the last 20 years? I'm trying to think who it would be. I really hope Ryan Saunders can at least be a guy that's good enough to move us in the right direction for a while. I don't think we really know yet and he ain't going anywhere for a while...plus let's be honest who knows how long it's going to be before we have a full typical regular season. That might not happen till 2022. It's hard to take the next year too seriously when it comes to sports for me.

[Lipoli390]

There are some reasons to have a bit of faith he isn't incompetent. Name the last time you felt as good about an I drafted rookie FA as either Naz Reid or J-MAC and we have 2 of them! Lol let's remember the Grizzlies botched some moves and still were a heck of a squad for a good long run and to some extent aren't even considered that good of an organization from top to bottom...went through how many head coaches etc.

Monster - I agree with all your points, especially the paragraph you wrote about the Rosas FA signings. I'm definitely impressed with the fact that the Wolves front office identified and signed Naz Reid, J-Mac and even Martin. I actually like the Beasley acquisition because he gives us a 3-point gunner we didn't have and, even more importantly, a guy with a really competitive edge to his personality. I'll be happy with Rosas if he can keep Beasley for a reasonable amount of money. I didn't mind trading Saric. My issue was using him to trade up for Culver. Saric had trade value and using him to trade up for Culver had opportunity costs associated with it. I was a move too much like moves we've seen from past Wolves' regimes.

I think your point about the head coach position is important. As you said, coaching matters in the NBA. Like you, I'm pulling for Ryan. Part of that is that he's such a good guy. But I think it was a mistake to hire him in the first place. I just don't think he has what it takes to be a good head coach and there was nothing in his background to suggest he was the best choice. When the Mavs hired Carlisle, he had already established himself as an elite NBA head coach. When McHale hired Flip, he could point to Flip's record of success as a head coach in the CBA. When the Bulls hired Phil Jackson, he had already been a successful championship head coach in professional basketball as well as a top assistant in the NBA. Stevens had been a highly successful Division 1 college head coach before the Celtics hired him. The list goes on. I agree that when it comes to evaluating Rosas, a key will be how long Rosas stays with Ryan if things aren't working out.

[Monster]

There are some reasons to have a bit of faith he isn't incompetent. Name the last time you felt as good about an I drafted rookie FA as either Naz Reid or J-MAC and we have 2 of them! Lol let's remember the Grizzlies botched some moves and still were a heck of a squad for a good long run and to some extent aren't even considered that good of an organization from top to bottom...went through how many head coaches etc.

Monster - I agree with all your points, especially the paragraph you wrote about the Rosas FA signings. I'm definitely impressed with the fact that the Wolves front office identified and signed Naz Reid, J-Mac and even Martin. I actually like the Beasley acquisition because he gives us a 3-point gunner we didn't have and, even more importantly, a guy with a really competitive edge to his personality. I'll be happy with Rosas if he can keep Beasley for a reasonable amount of money. I didn't mind trading Saric. My issue was using him to trade up for Culver. Saric had trade value and using him to trade up for Culver had opportunity costs associated with it. I was a move too much like moves we've seen from past Wolves' regimes.

I think your point about the head coach position is important. As you said, coaching matters in the NBA. Like you, I'm pulling for Ryan. Part of that is that he's such a good guy. But I think it was a mistake to hire him in the first place. I just don't think he has what it takes to be a good head coach and there was nothing in his background to suggest he was the best choice. When the Mavs hired Carlisle, he had already established himself as an elite NBA head coach. When McHale hired Flip, he could point to Flip's record of success as a head coach in the CBA. When the Bulls hired Phil Jackson, he had already been a successful championship head coach in professional basketball as well as a top assistant in the NBA. Stevens had been a highly successful Division 1 college head coach before the Celtics hired him. The list goes on. I agree that when it comes to evaluating Rosas, a key will be how long Rosas stays with Ryan if things aren't working out.

I think it's also fair to consider the other options Rosas had at the time he hired Ryan. I don't remember anyone THAT compelling. Sure other guys arguably had a better coaching resume but again I didn't see anyone that I was dying to hire. If Kenny Atkinson had been available and we picked Ryan Saunders (unless there's is something amiss with Atkinson we don't know) that would have bothered me and I did want Ryan to get the job. So who will be available that Rosas can get if or when he decides to move on from Ryan? Will he be too late to get someone that's actually good? Will Rosas even be around to make that decision?

Like I said it feels like the next year to year and a half for the Wolves could basically just a lame duck couple of seasons anyway. I'm not saying they don't matter but it may be hard to assess much of anything all that well. Meanwhile guys will be getting near the end of their contracts and inching toward points in their ages where they may not want to wait around for whatever to happen. It could also be a time where Rosas could end up making some brilliant moves while other teams decide to sell something off or whatever. I don't really feel that optimistic but that's more because the position the Wolves are in not because I think they a bad organization at this point although they certainly could be. Lol Rebuilding when you may not be able to play games on a regular basis doesn't seem Like a good recipe to me. The thing I think the Wolves could do during this tike is build a sort of culture within the franchise...assuming Rosas and the people he has brought in are actually good at their jobs and they also continue to bring in more smart people or look for more knowledge to deal with various challenges ahead. There generally speaking isn't a playbook for dealing with a pandemic. Most everyone is figuring it out as we go.

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

I am not sure how to read where we are at with this team, you both point out several things to support your stance, but Rosa certainly feels different than any of the guys we had running the team before.

Here is the thing though - some of these other teams add one player and things change, some teams do complete overhauls and still win. Even crazier - other teams lose key players and still win...

Are we going to be one of those teams that has all the pieces and just need to start playing together under a modern coach? Our lineup on paper, I am sure my glasses are really tinted looking at the roster, looks like it should work with each other - right?

"Stars"
Russell - All star ball hander with volumetric 3p shooting that fits the scheme, he keeps saying things like "I have matured" - is this what was wrong with him? He has the potential to excel with Beasley and Towns next to him.
Beasley - Its seems odd, but we might have traded for a person who is actually going to get better for us?
Towns - All star who wants to be the leader and cant play any defense. He is a unicorn on offense, this is usually something other teams exploit - we dont.

"Potential"
Okogie - Defensive roll player who could get better - maybe.
Culver - Underwhelming rookie high draft pick - if his 3p shot gets fixed...sigh...he could develop right?

"Long-shots"
McLaughlin - I think he is a great min guy who has really played well considering he is an end of bench guy.
Reid - Raw, maybe turns into a roll player?
KBP - Can he even play?


So as far as I can tell, we need a defensive big that can shoot the 3...someone to take the defensive responsibilities away from Towns. Are we 1 player away from turning the whole thing around or is this roster just like every other year - a random collection of raw talent that cant play as a team and underperforms to be bottom 5 in the league again and leads the league in losing culture?

[thedoper]

I think the Wolves needed a GM that was going to be very active in looking for deals on the margins to incrementally improve us. Butler set us back, once he insisted on being out we had another long road ahead of us. I think Rosas has made some interesting moves for the most part. Most people assumed we would have to get rid of multiple picks to ditch Wiggins contract. Rosas landed a better player. His trade up in the draft was a nice move too. The one area I think you have to question is the one draft. Barring a shooting miracle (which the Wolves have never had), Rosas used a lottery pick to draft a bench player at best. It is only one draft, let's hope he gets this one right, because its really our one shot to bring this team to the next level. We need an asset either for our roster or for trade bait. Overall, I'm fine leaving the judgement on Rosas for a later date. But I definitely see the concern.

I'm trying very hard not to hijack this thread into another diatribe about Taylor.

[TAFKASP]

Wolves gonna Woof. When you think about it it is really impressive that this team has managed to be so bad, for as long as it has. If you tried to build a crappy team using the assets this team has had you would probably struggle to do worse.

We can take some pride in that! LOL

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

I sure does feel like all the following are true (but are not, or at least I didn't check):

Each year we pick the wrong guy (except Towns though Flip almost made that mistake)
Each year there is a handful of guys people on this board clammer for, that all turn out better than what we did pick
Each FA pickup regresses
Half of our former players fit in on their new team and thrive in that role
The other half of our former players are never signed to play at any level anywhere in the world ever again
Every coach we sign somehow figures out how to make us the worst in the league at something
Whatever that "worst in the league" is always exposes our star player
Some loaded team moves in front of us in the lottery and they use that pick to become a great team
Each time we think we are about to turn the corner the whole thing implodes like a supergiant
Each time we have some room under the cap we pick the most obsolete/league redundant player and overpay him on a long contract

[Coolbreeze44]

I sure does feel like all the following are true (but are not, or at least I didn't check):

Each year we pick the wrong guy (except Towns though Flip almost made that mistake)
Each year there is a handful of guys people on this board clammer for, that all turn out better than what we did pick
Each FA pickup regresses
Half of our former players fit in on their new team and thrive in that role
The other half of our former players are never signed to play at any level anywhere in the world ever again
Every coach we sign somehow figures out how to make us the worst in the league at something
Whatever that "worst in the league" is always exposes our star player
Some loaded team moves in front of us in the lottery and they use that pick to become a great team
Each time we think we are about to turn the corner the whole thing implodes like a supergiant
Each time we have some room under the cap we pick the most obsolete/league redundant player and overpay him on a long contract

That's a great list. LOL

As far as the current team goes, the guys we need to get the most minutes will hurt us too bad on the defensive end. We should be more fun to watch, but it's still a pretty flawed overall roster. I'm willing to wait to see what happens next season, but as I've stated many times I'm pretty pessimistic about contending any time soon.