This photo....

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AbeVigodaLive
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This photo....

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

Image

I've whined for awhile now about how the NBA's officiating has as much to do with the 3-point barrage as anything else. Take a look at the photo above taken from The Athletic's Wolves draft article: https://theathletic.com/2013965/2020/08/31/team-specific-big-boards-timberwolves-nba-draft-options-and-offseason-preview/

Look at the amount of leverage the undersized Hollis-Jefferson is able to put on Towns. There's no real attempt to "play defense" here unless you count pushing a guy any way you can from getting into position. You know it very likely wasn't simply him leaning on Towns either. Often, it's pushing, shoving, leaning and slapping from the undersized guy vs. the big down low.

But watch that elbow on the spin move, Karl. It's just as likely (or more) to draw a foul as anything Hollis-Jefferson just did prior...
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: This photo....

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

You want the rules to give defenders less liberties? I've seen enough 140 point games, it's time to allow more contact back into the game. I'm not saying we get back to the hold and grab days of the 90's, but the game has swung too much to the offensive player. Back the 3 point line up and let the guys play D.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: This photo....

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

CoolBreeze44 wrote:You want the rules to give defenders less liberties? I've seen enough 140 point games, it's time to allow more contact back into the game. I'm not saying we get back to the hold and grab days of the 90's, but the game has swung too much to the offensive player. Back the 3 point line up and let the guys play D.



No. Only in the post.

Perimeter defense is skewed the other way... which makes post defense officiating downright ridiculous.

[Note: As far as the onslaught of scoring... I'm coming around a bit to players simply being better. The stuff that Jamal Murray and Mitchell are doing is crazy. They're not even playing gimmicks like Harden.

One guy is 31 - 54 on three pointers. (many many step backs off the dribble)
The other guy is 31 - 56 against a myriad of defenders coming at him.
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SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: This photo....

Post by SameOldNudityDrew »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:You want the rules to give defenders less liberties? I've seen enough 140 point games, it's time to allow more contact back into the game. I'm not saying we get back to the hold and grab days of the 90's, but the game has swung too much to the offensive player. Back the 3 point line up and let the guys play D.



No. Only in the post.

Perimeter defense is skewed the other way... which makes post defense officiating downright ridiculous.

[Note: As far as the onslaught of scoring... I'm coming around a bit to players simply being better. The stuff that Jamal Murray and Mitchell are doing is crazy. They're not even playing gimmicks like Harden.

One guy is 31 - 54 on three pointers. (many many step backs off the dribble)
The other guy is 31 - 56 against a myriad of defenders coming at him.


It is really impossible to deny these guys are just better than they used to be. I think players have made huge strides both athletically and in terms of skill.

Jordan was the breakthrough. But who else in that era could do the things guys do regularly today? That's not a knock on Jordan, especially offensively. Defenses were really tough then. But what players in the 90s or even early 2000s could play like guys are playing today offensively?

Shaq was unstoppable for awhile, that's true. And Duncan was stiff and boring, but basically flawless. Iverson and Kobe were great individual scorers, but nobody was pulling up from deep like Lillard, raining 3s like Curry, or averaging triple doubles like Harden and Westbrook (other than O). There were no 7 footers who could handle and shoot like Durant. There were great passing big men as far back as Walton and Sabonis, but they weren't as good as Jokic. Heck, Towns' three-point shooting would look crazy from a big man in the 90s, although Dirk really started to change that. Obviously Bird and Magic were great, especially for their size, and Wilt was a beast out of time, but there's just so many guys out there today who can just score the ball in ways I can't remember any guys being able to do before the last decade or so. None of this even mentions LeBron, AD, Kahwi, or Giannis or Luka on the way. And the fact that we're talking about Mitchell and Murray, both of whom are arguably the second-best players on their team is a testament to the depth of the league right now. I'm so happy to be able to watch this. The Mitchell-Murray thing is really one to remember. Can't wait for game 7.

EDIT: I mean, send video of that Murray 360 layup or some of those deep Lillard 3 pointers or some of these Harden or Luka boxscores back in time to 1995 and they would melt people's eyes and set their brains on fire. Those would have been viewed as the highlights of the decade. Now, we just wait for the next game to see what else we get.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: This photo....

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
CoolBreeze44 wrote:You want the rules to give defenders less liberties? I've seen enough 140 point games, it's time to allow more contact back into the game. I'm not saying we get back to the hold and grab days of the 90's, but the game has swung too much to the offensive player. Back the 3 point line up and let the guys play D.



No. Only in the post.

Perimeter defense is skewed the other way... which makes post defense officiating downright ridiculous.

[Note: As far as the onslaught of scoring... I'm coming around a bit to players simply being better. The stuff that Jamal Murray and Mitchell are doing is crazy. They're not even playing gimmicks like Harden.

One guy is 31 - 54 on three pointers. (many many step backs off the dribble)
The other guy is 31 - 56 against a myriad of defenders coming at him.


And the fact that we're talking about Mitchell and Murray, both of whom are arguably the second-best players on their team is a testament to the depth of the league right now. I'm so happy to be able to watch this. The Mitchell-Murray thing is really one to remember. Can't wait for game 7.



Mitchell has to be considered Utah's best player by now, right?

Personally, I thought Gobert was terrible yesterday. Not subpar... terrible. He was soft near the rim and his hands were simply not there yesterday.

And we've seen previously how for as good as he is defensively for the better part of 82 games... it doesn't translate as much in the playoffs depending on matchups.

Looking forward to Game 7, too.
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SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: This photo....

Post by SameOldNudityDrew »

Yeah, I think he's surpassed Gobert, but I think it's still arguable in the sense that guys could very reasonably disagree.

Either way, the point is you're right; this is nuts. The way a bunch of these guys are scoring would put them in the conversation right there behind or with Jordan back in the day, and now they're just one of the two best guys on a playoff team. The level of offensive talent these days is so much higher and deeper than when I was a kid. This is not a point about Jordan. I'm not getting into the championships argument or anything like that. Just in terms of talent, especially offensively, we've come a really long way since then.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: This photo....

Post by Q12543 [enjin:6621299] »

I agree that refs seem to automatically give a smaller post defender more rope to jostle, grab, and push a bigger offensive player as if to even out the advantage. Well, that's not fair. If a team goes small or gets caught up in a switch, that's their problem in terms of scheme to deal with.

As for the offensive talent in today's game, I don't think the current players are inherently more talented, but instead the value of the 3-pointer has meant they spend much more practice time and offseason work on pull-up 3s, 26-footers, step back 3s, etc. These were considered novelty shots back in the 90s and a good part of the 2000s. On the other hand, is Harden or Luka or Lillard as skilled as Kobe or Jordan in taking mid-range contested turnarounds? Those are tough-ass shots to master, but are no longer valued due to the analytics movement.
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khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
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Re: This photo....

Post by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728] »

Offense has exploded more due to the value of the 3 and the abuse of existing rules (gather step, jumping forward to draw contact on jump shots) than restricting defenses. The gather step is the worst rule in the sport that didn't come around until 2009. They still haven't figured out that the offensive player creating the contact is either an offensive foul or a no call and they always give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt. So you can take 3 steps to get to anywhere on the court, jump into any defender and get the call and you spend more time practicing outside shooting than ever before because terrible shots are now mathematically fine to take as long as you hit a couple of them. Just taking away the bullshit rules that give the offensive player those first two advantages should be enough to bring the scoring back down to earth.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: This photo....

Post by Coolbreeze44 »

The biggest reason for offense exploding is the hand check rule that came in 2004. Everything else has evolved from that. If you were around in the years proceeding this rule, you know how much it changed the game.
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Monster
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Re: This photo....

Post by Monster »

Pace of the game has an effect also. It also helps a little bit in terms of the triple doubles as well.

I think deep shooting has progressed right now but it's partly due to knowledge of the math of the value of the 3. I think some guys back in the day probably would have been able to do SOME of what is happening now but like it was said before the 3 was almost a novelty and when was it that the 3 was added? The game has evolved.
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