Wiggins rebounding

[MikkeMan]

There has been sometimes complaining about how few rebounds Wiggins is getting even for a guard. But if we look only offensive rebounding, he ranks currently 4th in offensive rebounding rate out of all guards that are playing at least 20 minutes per night.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=OREB_PCT&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*20&PlayerPosition=GORB% for all guards playing at least 20 minutes per game

Only guards that are currently grabbing offensive rebounds with higher rate are Tony Allen and Rondae Hollis-Jefferson that won't have almost any other responsibilities in offensive end. Third guard above Wiggins is Westbrook who is just a freak of nature in rebounding from his position.

So I think Wiggins could grab also more defensive rebounds but since Minnesota has bigs that are very good defensive rebounders (Garnett ranks 3rd in defensive rebounding rate and Towns 11th and even Bjelica, Dieng and Payne have better than 20% DRB%), his defensive rebounding is not needed that much.

It would be probably better idea that Wiggins would try to more often seek fast break opportunities when opponent is shooting than trying to help in defensive rebounding. Unfortunately it seems that he still is not doing that enough. (both Martin and Lavine have more fast break points than Wiggins)

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Good stuff, mikkeman. I've noticed recently how Wig is becoming a force on the offensive glass...really good to see. I know I spend a lot of time advancing my narrative that Zach LaVine should stay at PG, but a lot of my argument is that Wig seems much more dominant offensively and defensively when he is playing SG where he can use his size advantage. Wig does rank 4th among guards in offensive rebounding, but he ranks 66th in total rebounding because of his lack of defensive rebounds. I agree with you that that's okay if we have other bigs out their to grab the defensive rebounds, but when Wig is our SF we have one fewer big to rebound. I much prefer him at SG, and your offensive rebounding stat is one of the main reasons.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Good stuff Mikkeman. Wiggins is also the tallest and most athletic of the group depicted here, so I would expect him to be in the upper echelon of rebounders. The fact it's only on the offensive side of the glass goes to show that he doesn't really work hard to pursue defensive rebounds. I mean, LaVine and Rubio - our two point guards - average more rebounds than Wiggins.

Am I nit-picking? Yes, to some degree. But one of the hallmarks of "the greats" at the wing position is that they almost all were above average rebounders for their position. Nevertheless, it's not a make or break thing for him.

Overall, the number I'm far more focused on with Wiggins is TS%, as efficient scoring will have a far bigger impact on games than his rebounding. Ultimately we want that to get into the mid 50s or higher.

[Monster]

I thought this was a good place to post this interesting article.

http://www.1500espn.com/wolves-2/2015/12/feelings-arent-numbers-advanced-stats-and-andrew-wiggins/

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I thought this was a good place to post this interesting article.

http://www.1500espn.com/wolves-2/2015/12/feelings-arent-numbers-advanced-stats-and-andrew-wiggins/

Yeah, the Real Plus-Minus stat is a total mystery to me. Something is wrong with that stat if it shows him that poorly (on the other hand, it passes the smell test with some of our other players).

The more conventional PER and WS/48 stats are probably better advanced stats to look at when it comes to Wiggins, yet neither really account for individual defense or clutch play. Until he starts knocking down a higher percentage of shots and/or collecting more rebounds and assists, he's not going to excel in those stats either.

My conclusion is that he's better than what any of the advanced stats tells us, but he's also not a star yet. He's somewhere in between, which isn't sexy, but it is true. Hopefully what we're witnessing is the midway point on the road to stardom.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I thought this was a good place to post this interesting article.

http://www.1500espn.com/wolves-2/2015/12/feelings-arent-numbers-advanced-stats-and-andrew-wiggins/

Yeah, the Real Plus-Minus stat is a total mystery to me. Something is wrong with that stat if it shows him that poorly (on the other hand, it passes the smell test with some of our other players).

The more conventional PER and WS/48 stats are probably better advanced stats to look at when it comes to Wiggins, yet neither really account for individual defense or clutch play. Until he starts knocking down a higher percentage of shots and/or collecting more rebounds and assists, he's not going to excel in those stats either.

My conclusion is that he's better than what any of the advanced stats tells us, but he's also not a star yet. He's somewhere in between, which isn't sexy, but it is true. Hopefully what we're witnessing is the midway point on the road to stardom.

Check this out Q.

Tyus Jones season stats:

Tyus Jones season stats:

14 minutes.
0 - 5 fg
1 - 2 ft
1 point
1 assist
1 foul
1 rebound
30 Offensive rating
102 defensive rating

And yet, there are 12 players playing worse than him this season, including Derrick Rose, Kobe Bryant, Corey Brewer, Ty Lawson, Stanley Johnson, E. Mudiay. According to that statistic, the worst player in the NBA is Jahlil Okafor.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Abe, that is goofy indeed. The only explanation I have is that if you suck and play a lot of minutes (like Kobe), you do more damage to your team than if you suck and hardly play at all (like Tyus). But I don't know enough about the math behind the stat to know if that's a factor or not.

I think once a big enough sample size of games and minutes are accumulated, the stat does start to make more sense.

Here were the top 5 players last season in RPM:
Stephen Curry
LeBron James
James Harden
Anthony Davis
Kawhi Leonard

Here were the bottom 5:
Brandon Rush
Gary Harris
Anthony Bennett
Zach LaVine
Archie Goodwin

I don't see anything totally outlandish with these two lists based on how I viewed these players last year.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Abe, that is goofy indeed. The only explanation I have is that if you suck and play a lot of minutes (like Kobe), you do more damage to your team than if you suck and hardly play at all (like Tyus). But I don't know enough about the math behind the stat to know if that's a factor or not.

I think once a big enough sample size of games and minutes are accumulated, the stat does start to make more sense.

Here were the top 5 players last season in RPM:
Stephen Curry
LeBron James
James Harden
Anthony Davis
Kawhi Leonard

Here were the bottom 5:
Brandon Rush
Gary Harris
Anthony Bennett
Zach LaVine
Archie Goodwin

I don't see anything totally outlandish with these two lists based on how I viewed these players last year.

It seems to REALLY do more harm than good for younger players. Since there is less statistical evidence behind it or something... I dunno. Some stats guy on another forum went into a detailed explanation. I got bored though...

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Abe, that is goofy indeed. The only explanation I have is that if you suck and play a lot of minutes (like Kobe), you do more damage to your team than if you suck and hardly play at all (like Tyus). But I don't know enough about the math behind the stat to know if that's a factor or not.

I think once a big enough sample size of games and minutes are accumulated, the stat does start to make more sense.

Here were the top 5 players last season in RPM:
Stephen Curry
LeBron James
James Harden
Anthony Davis
Kawhi Leonard

Here were the bottom 5:
Brandon Rush
Gary Harris
Anthony Bennett
Zach LaVine
Archie Goodwin

I don't see anything totally outlandish with these two lists based on how I viewed these players last year.

It seems to REALLY do more harm than good for younger players. Since there is less statistical evidence behind it or something... I dunno. Some stats guy on another forum went into a detailed explanation. I got bored though...

Yeah, I think it hates rookies due to a lack of prior year data. Plus rookies really do suck on defense most of the time and that doesn't show up as much in the box score stats like PER. So it's not all just noise. Like anything, it's another data point to be included with other data points along with a healthy dose of actual observation. I do think it's more helpful than harmful once enough minutes are played.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Abe, that is goofy indeed. The only explanation I have is that if you suck and play a lot of minutes (like Kobe), you do more damage to your team than if you suck and hardly play at all (like Tyus). But I don't know enough about the math behind the stat to know if that's a factor or not.

I think once a big enough sample size of games and minutes are accumulated, the stat does start to make more sense.

Here were the top 5 players last season in RPM:
Stephen Curry
LeBron James
James Harden
Anthony Davis
Kawhi Leonard

Here were the bottom 5:
Brandon Rush
Gary Harris
Anthony Bennett
Zach LaVine
Archie Goodwin

I don't see anything totally outlandish with these two lists based on how I viewed these players last year.

It seems to REALLY do more harm than good for younger players. Since there is less statistical evidence behind it or something... I dunno. Some stats guy on another forum went into a detailed explanation. I got bored though...

Yeah, I think it hates rookies due to a lack of prior year data. Plus rookies really do suck on defense most of the time and that doesn't show up as much in the box score stats like PER. So it's not all just noise. Like anything, it's another data point to be included with other data points along with a healthy dose of actual observation. I do think it's more helpful than harmful once enough minutes are played.

Hey, if it can be used down the line as an arguing point ("sure, those 83 stats indicate this... but these 68 stats reveal this")... then I'm all in!

The more stats the merrier. Are they flawed? Who cares. I'd rather read boxscores than watch games anyway...