The Loss of Beverley and Vando

[Lipoli390]

The following is a good article on filling the gap left by the departure of Beverley in the Gobert deal.

https://www.canishoopus.com/2022/9/2/23316303/where-will-the-minnesota-timberwolves-look-to-help-replace-patrick-beverleys-production-nba

I think some are underestimating the impact of losing Beverley. Very provide an average of 4.6 assists, 4.1 rebounds and 1.2 steals a nearly one block in just over 25 minutes per game. But it's not just his individual two-way production that will be missed; it's also the moxie, energy, mentorship and basketball IQ he brought to the team. It's a big step down defensively from a guard trio of DLO, Edwards and Beverley to a trio of DLO, Edwards and Nowell. I understand that McDaniels is expected to start at SF this season with Edwards shifting to SG. However, McDaniels has yet to show that he can defend without fouling and he was already playing 26 minutes per game last season.

The article focuses on Beverley, but I'd argue that Vando's departure is also a significant loss. He averaged 8.4 rebounds and 1.3 steals in 25 minutes per game. That's tremendous production. And as with Beverley, his stats don't tell the entire story. His energy, penchant for getting to loose balls and disruptive defensive had a positive defensive impact on the Wolves beyond his numbers.

We know what Gobert brings defensively and on the boards. But you can't accurately or honestly assess what Gobert adds to the team without considering what the team has lost in no long having Beverley and Vando. Statistically, the Wolves have lost 12.5 rebounds and 2.5 steals per game. That's a big loss for a team that was one of the worst defensive rebounding teams in the League and still needs to improve defensively. Beverley was also a significant offensive contributor with his shooting, ball-handling and playmaking. And again, the loss is bigger when you factor in the intangible impact of those two players, especially the impact of Beverley.

Will the Gobert deal result in a net improvement in the team? Yes. The question is how much of a net improvement after considering the loss of Beverley and Vando. I don't have an answer to that question, but it's a question that the Wolves will answer through their performance this season. The scary scenario is one in which Gobert gets hurt and misses a major portion of the season. If that happens, the net result will be a Wolves team that's substantially worse than it would have been if the Wolves had done nothing to the roster this summer. That's the nightmare scenario in which we'll have to watch yet another Wolves lottery pick to to a conference rival.

[Monster]

Beverly's offense has value and I think the article makes a good point about as sometimes I think it's underrated but the article REALLY downplays Gobert's offense. The guy scored over 16 points on 7 shots a game and went to the line like an offensive star. He is the best screen setter in the league. Honestly Gobert's offense will be more impactful on the Wolves than what Beverly brought and that's coming from someone who believes in Beverly's impact there

It's also worth noting that Beverly had a down year shooting the 3 and as the article points out he did some solid playmaking though. Many people said Beverly was basically a catch and shoot guy. He isn't a true PG but he isn't just a 3 and D guy he can make some plays and be a help in making the offense go. McLaughlin will be playing some of those minutes and he will probably help the offense more than Beverly in those minutes or at least be equal. The defense is a legit drop off between those players but you mentioned steals. McLaughlin was easily first on the team with 2.3 of those per 36 minutes. I'd guess that McLaughlin as the clear #2 PG now may have a chance to offer some sort of role where he is more of a leader. It's also worth saying Beverly played 58 games and averaged 25 mpg. He was valuable in those minutes but we aren't taking about a guy that was out there for 70+ games playing 30+ minutes.

I don't want to downplay Vanderbilt too much but to me the Wolves replaced him with Anderson and Gobert. Anderson and Vanderbilt around the same player they have different strengths but I think their defensive versatility is where they are alike and while Vanderbilt is a better rebounder Anderson is a clearly better offensive player. I'll add that Anderson is a vet that is going to help this roster on and off the floor quite a bit and likely much more than Vanderbilt who is a great dude but I doubt was going to have a significant leadership role.

The Wolves will miss Beverly in a few ways especially in his minutes as a defender but let's also remember this reality. Last season the Wolves best rim protector was who? Towns? Gobert is gonna be an absolute massive difference defending the rim AND rebounding.

In addition the Wolves are going to field a HUGE starting lineup. If they wanted to they could play some lineup where Kyle anderson at 6'9" is basically their PG.

Another thing to consider the guys that will be playing guard minutes if there is injuries aren't young guys like Nowell or Bolmaro etc it will be vets like Austin Rivers and Bryn Forbes who will get the first call. Will Moore get some run? Probably but having a couple vet guards that also have a healthy amount of playoff experience will be handy. Eric Paschall a guy going into his 4th year as an NBA player ain't a bad depth guy from
A 2-way spot.

[Phenom]

I think it is likely that Gobert vs Bev/Vando is a net positive even while acknowledging their strengths can be missed. I like that Gobert should help shore up the defensive glass weakness that was often present with last years roster. The eventual decline of Beverleys defensive impact and games missed is not something that looms for this team any more. Gobert will also keep defenses occupied in ways that Vando doesn't. Hopefully, in time, Wendell and Minott can replicate some of what was lost from those 2.

[Q-is-here]

The following is a good article on filling the gap left by the departure of Beverley in the Gobert deal.

https://www.canishoopus.com/2022/9/2/23316303/where-will-the-minnesota-timberwolves-look-to-help-replace-patrick-beverleys-production-nba

I think some are underestimating the impact of losing Beverley. Very provide an average of 4.6 assists, 4.1 rebounds and 1.2 steals a nearly one block in just over 25 minutes per game. But it's not just his individual two-way production that will be missed; it's also the moxie, energy, mentorship and basketball IQ he brought to the team. It's a big step down defensively from a guard trio of DLO, Edwards and Beverley to a trio of DLO, Edwards and Nowell. I understand that McDaniels is expected to start at SF this season with Edwards shifting to SG. However, McDaniels has yet to show that he can defend without fouling and he was already playing 26 minutes per game last season.

The article focuses on Beverley, but I'd argue that Vando's departure is also a significant loss. He averaged 8.4 rebounds and 1.3 steals in 25 minutes per game. That's tremendous production. And as with Beverley, his stats don't tell the entire story. His energy, penchant for getting to loose balls and disruptive defensive had a positive defensive impact on the Wolves beyond his numbers.

We know what Gobert brings defensively and on the boards. But you can't accurately or honestly assess what Gobert adds to the team without considering what the team has lost in no long having Beverley and Vando. Statistically, the Wolves have lost 12.5 rebounds and 2.5 steals per game. That's a big loss for a team that was one of the worst defensive rebounding teams in the League and still needs to improve defensively. Beverley was also a significant offensive contributor with his shooting, ball-handling and playmaking. And again, the loss is bigger when you factor in the intangible impact of those two players, especially the impact of Beverley.

Will the Gobert deal result in a net improvement in the team? Yes. The question is how much of a net improvement after considering the loss of Beverley and Vando. I don't have an answer to that question, but it's a question that the Wolves will answer through their performance this season. The scary scenario is one in which Gobert gets hurt and misses a major portion of the season. If that happens, the net result will be a Wolves team that's substantially worse than it would have been if the Wolves had done nothing to the roster this summer. That's the nightmare scenario in which we'll have to watch yet another Wolves lottery pick to to a conference rival.

Lip, there are lots of other nightmare scenarios too. KAT getting seriously hurt, Ant getting seriously hurt, someone violating a league policy and getting a long suspension....there are all sorts of "black swan" events that could happen whether we made the trade or not. I would also question whether Gobert getting hurt would totally derail our season. I would sure hope not, although 50 wins would likely be out of reach.

[WallyBall]

I get the Moxie Bev brought, his fire was infectious
He was a scrappy plus x 1.5 defender
But would you rather have Embiid on defense or Beverley?
It's much more uncommon for a guard to impose his will on defense like bigs do.
When's the last time a guard won DPOY minus Marcus Smart?
Bigs may not be as important in the game as they used to be, but that trend doesn't permeate defense as much as it does offense.
Give me a plus defender at center over a guard
There are just as many ways to scheme around a lock down perimeter guard as there is to scheme around a big.

I also like our depth better from top to bottom this year at all positions, even if that makes us thin at one.

And to someone else's point, we also have SloMo....

Also, in my opinion, as I don't know the advanced statistics on this, Bev was almost unplayable on offense in crunch time. No one respected his shot, he would charge the hoop with out a plan to actually make the basket, and he would make KAT like mental errors and turn the ball over.

Give me the rim running, bone rattling screen guy all day.

[FNG]

The article makes a fair point in not minimizing the loss of Beverley and Vando. They will both be missed. But did anyone think you pick up a game-changing All-Star like Gobert without some pain? I'm on the side of the debate here that losing a likely late-20s pick every other year isn't a big concern, but it's fair to assess what life will be like without the energy of these two players. But let's face the facts...neither Vando nor PatBev is a starter on a contending team, and we had both of them starting much of the year last season...and still make the playoffs.

Much has been said about the leadership Pat brought. But as entertaining as I found him last season, I much prefer a mature leader like Rudy Gobert as a role model for our young players. Remember why Pat missed media day and the start of team practices? He was in Milan for Fashion Week! Is that what we need as a role model? And while his at-times punkish on-court antics were fun to watch, they also seemed rather immature to me at times. And with his 34.2% and 53.9% TS%, we had one of the least efficient scoring backcourts in the association last year. And finally, Pat has averaged 48.6 healthy games the past three seasons, and it's not likely he has found the Fountain of Youth at age 34.

I'll probably miss Vando a little more than PatBev. I occupied an early seat on the Vando bandwagon, and enjoyed his relentless offensive rebounding. But the Vando experience also included hands of stone, no outside shot, and 65% free throw shooting. We may miss his rebounding, but I don't think anyone believes a KAT/Vando tandem rebounds better than a KAT/Gobert tandem.

So yeah, we will miss these two high-energy players. PatBev's excellent on-ball defense helped transform DLo into a serviceable defensive free safety, and we will need Ant to step up in this role...that's my biggest concern. But we have replaced these two players (plus three other bench players) we mostly liked with a quartet of veterans in their prime (Gobert, Anderson, Forbes and Rivers) who will help us more than the players we gave up. It's impossible to make a rational case that our roster going into this season isn't significantly better than last year.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Yeah, I will miss some of the energetic, gritty moments Patrick Beverley and Jarred Vanderbilt brought to the table -- as well as the occasional hot shooting nights from Malik Beasley -- but they were all limited/flawed players at best who could only impact games so much on their own. They relied heavily upon playing with core players versus being one themselves. Ideally, none of them are in your starting lineup and yet they made up two-fifths of Minnesota's last year. The Timberwolves needed to upgrade across the board.

I think the additions of Rudy Gobert and Kyle Anderson more than make up for what was traded away and then some. I also think the increased opportunities/minutes for Jordan McLaughlin, Jaylen Nowell, and Jaden McDaniels should further offset the losses of Beverley, Vanderbilt, and Beasley.

All in all, the Timberwolves got significantly better this off-season -- so much so that the players that are no longer on the roster will not be missed nor will we question their departures.

[Monster]

Yeah, I will miss some of the energetic, gritty moments Patrick Beverley and Jarred Vanderbilt brought to the table -- as well as the occasional hot shooting nights from Malik Beasley -- but they were all limited/flawed players at best who could only impact games so much on their own. They relied heavily upon playing with core players versus being one themselves. Ideally, none of them are in your starting lineup and yet they made up two-fifths of Minnesota's last year. The Timberwolves needed to upgrade across the board.

I think the additions of Rudy Gobert and Kyle Anderson more than make up for what was traded away and then some. I also think the increased opportunities/minutes for Jordan McLaughlin, Jaylen Nowell, and Jaden McDaniels should further offset the losses of Beverley, Vanderbilt, and Beasley.

All in all, the Timberwolves got significantly better this off-season -- so much so that the players that are no longer on the roster will not be missed nor will we question their departures.

This is a good post. I think you bring up a worthwhile point including Beasley. He played the 4th most minutes on last year's roster. I do think there is a chance some of his contributions will be missed but I think other players including Nowell and Forbes and even Rivers will fill in for him possibly with equal or even better overall results.

Not much has been talked about when it comes to Nowell being a fit with Gobert. I believe there was some talk on Twitter etc about pick and roll being one of his strengths offensively too. If Nowell becomes the player I think a lot of of us think he can be as a real diverse offensive player off the bench that's gonna be more than a small development for this season.

[Q-is-here]

At this point, the key from going from good to great lies in Ant, McDaniels, and Nowell. Pretty much everyone else in the rotation we know what to expect. Gobert significantly raises the floor for this team, but the ceiling is really dependent on these three guys and what kind of improvement they make or don't make.

[Sundog]

I think another thing we tend to discount about the Gobert trade is that, last season, the Wolves would not have been able to manage through significant injuries to key players. Generally speaking the Wolves were exceptionally lucky in that regard, but we all said, if KAT goes down for any length of time, the season is over. This new Wolves team would seem to have significantly more redundancy/resiliency built into the roster -- not perfect, certainly. But if Karl goes down this year with an injury, they Wolves still have an all-star center they can rely on. Kyle offers more optionality than Vando, to help fill gaps caused by injuries to others players. Rivers can play both point and shooting guard, etc. Knock on wood, but it seems to me the team is better positioned to withstand injuries than last year.