I'm reading post after post calling for a rebuild from the same posters that had this team as a 6th seed in the west. How can all of our players become worthless over a three or four game stretch. Some of us have been questioning Adelman and Flip since the summer, and were unhappy with the FA signings. Others have been breaking down 5 game stretches, while others just drank the Kool-Aid that Flip seemed to be mixing up on a weekly basis.
Many of you wanted Dwill gone, and DC and Luc playing in his place. Well you got your wish, and how is that turning out. Many thought Brewer was a lockdown defender and 3pt shooter, even though he has never shown either to be true. Many were thrilled to follow blindly behind the (not HOF) old coach, who has a lot wins in the NBA because he was adamant about not coaching rebuilding teams over the years which resulted in long stays with the clubs he coached.
Myself and others like Cool, and Doper, and sometimes Lip have questioned the direction of this team for awhile now. We understand that to be successful in Minny we have to develop players. If you don't understand that, ask yourself why we were never mentioned as a destination for Turkeyglue. Flip went out and blew whatever cap space we had on over paying (whether that is in salary or years) for Martin, Brewer, Bud and Pek. I include Pek because he isn't worth the money on this team due to fit imo, and because we bid against ourselves. From what I witnessed, we bid against ourselves on every one of those signings. I know Bud said he took less money to stay here, but I have never read one article that ever mentioned an offer from another team.
I have continually been stumping for Dwill on this board, not because I particularly like him, but because I realized that his overall game was every bit as good or better than any player we had coming off the bench. The deciding factor for me was that Dwill had the potential to improve where as the others are already who they will be. That doesn't get us wins now, but from what I have witnessed, either are the mass number of role players on our team. Even though he hasn't posted big numbers, Dwill has certainly been a very efficient player since he left the wolves, and something we sorely lack on our bench.
I think we need to change coaches. I think Brewer is suffering from playing too many minutes. High energy guys can't maintain that level for thirty plus minutes. I think our offense is a bad fit for our roster. Pek shouldn't have the ball at the elbow, he can't pass. Rubio shouldn't be coming into the front court passing off to Pek and waiting in the corner to become a shooter. Brewer should be cutting to the basket, and nothing else. These are all things that any HS coach should determine after watching ten minutes of game film. Why hasn't Adelman realized it? Some have continually ripped Kahn for the Wes Johnson trade, and while I hated the pick, does anyone think that Wes couldn't have become a decent 3&D guy off the bench. Adelman destroys guys like Wes, Dwill, and Shved because he has no idea how to develop them. Adelman was the one insistent on moving Wes, but some reason Kahn has taken all of the fallout from that. How is Bud any more valuable than Wes was? Bud a lousy defender, and used to be a decent 3pt shooter.
What happened???
Re: What happened???
I hated the Flip hiring from the beginning, although I think he made some good moves so far. My biggest concern is long term, with a whole new inbred country club system coming into place. At least Kahn was a step away from that.
I was really upbeat with the Adelman signing and wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt based on his resumè, but it is starting to look like his ability to tailor a system to his players is overrated. At first, he seemed to let Ricky run free and he was playing fun, exciting basketball. Once the roster improved, it feels like Ricky is an afterthought and that the whole gameplan took a completely different turn. Seeing as Ricky is such a large part of the future here, this is not acceptable. I am ok letting Rick go now.
As far as blowing up the roster, I am very against that still. I think that the main pieces can still get the job done with the right coach. Where I am starting to waver is Kevin Love. I have thought all along that he would resign here when the time came but yhe doubts are starting to creep in for me. Maybe he is just in a slump recently but maybe he just isn't cut out to carry a team. The team has needed him more than ever in recent games and he isn't showing a sense of urgency. I am becoming more open to trading him now, while the gettin is good, and before he leaves us high and dry.
I was really upbeat with the Adelman signing and wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt based on his resumè, but it is starting to look like his ability to tailor a system to his players is overrated. At first, he seemed to let Ricky run free and he was playing fun, exciting basketball. Once the roster improved, it feels like Ricky is an afterthought and that the whole gameplan took a completely different turn. Seeing as Ricky is such a large part of the future here, this is not acceptable. I am ok letting Rick go now.
As far as blowing up the roster, I am very against that still. I think that the main pieces can still get the job done with the right coach. Where I am starting to waver is Kevin Love. I have thought all along that he would resign here when the time came but yhe doubts are starting to creep in for me. Maybe he is just in a slump recently but maybe he just isn't cut out to carry a team. The team has needed him more than ever in recent games and he isn't showing a sense of urgency. I am becoming more open to trading him now, while the gettin is good, and before he leaves us high and dry.
Re: What happened???
I'll respond to a few of your points:
1A. DWill may have more physical talent than what we have on our bench but the guy isn't a basketball player. There are plenty of players in the NBA that excel in spite of their lack of physical skills, and the world is full of players that have all the physical tools in the world and yet have none of the drive or IQ to capitalize on them and IMO DWill is firmly in that category and nothing he's done in Sac says otherwise.
1B. Yes they need to draft and develop talent as thats the only way to build a long term winning team. To do this they need to be disciplined enough to take the best available talent rather than reaching for fit. However that didn't really work out for them when they picked the guy discussed in 1A!
2. I'm in agreement that the moves Flip made were less than perfect, yet this team was/is clearly in a win now situation. History says teams rarely win now when they're in a win now situation, but I don't think the fan base would have approved had he come in with a three year plan. Hell, I don't think they would have approved of a two year plan. I'm not giving Flip a pass on that, but we do have to recognize that there was clearly a win now directive from Taylor and the fans and decisions made in that situation are far tougher than long term plans.
3. I think Brewer's style of play is the type that has to fit into the team, rather than simply be added. When you have four other players on the floor with him that are playing well as they did early this season it allows him to be more focused on his role. Once Love and Martin start clanking shot after shot after shot and the team needs more scoring from the 3 he's no longer a good fit. Within his role I think he's a good, though not great addition, the key is making sure he can remain in that role.
Bottom line as many have said in other threads here is the problem begins at the top. For all his business success Taylor simply cannot pick a good talent to lead the team from a basketball perspective. As fans we owe him a debt of gratitude for saving the team from moving to New Orleans, yet beyond that he has been a disaster as a team owner.
The current situation leaves the team in the same situation as they were with KG, capped out and without a real team around the core of Love/Pek/Rubio. They can keep trying to move the chairs around the deck to find a combination that works, again just like they did with KG, or they can cut bait and start over. Talk about a rock and a hard place.
At least the Clippers fans had the beaches and bikinis to distract them.
1A. DWill may have more physical talent than what we have on our bench but the guy isn't a basketball player. There are plenty of players in the NBA that excel in spite of their lack of physical skills, and the world is full of players that have all the physical tools in the world and yet have none of the drive or IQ to capitalize on them and IMO DWill is firmly in that category and nothing he's done in Sac says otherwise.
1B. Yes they need to draft and develop talent as thats the only way to build a long term winning team. To do this they need to be disciplined enough to take the best available talent rather than reaching for fit. However that didn't really work out for them when they picked the guy discussed in 1A!
2. I'm in agreement that the moves Flip made were less than perfect, yet this team was/is clearly in a win now situation. History says teams rarely win now when they're in a win now situation, but I don't think the fan base would have approved had he come in with a three year plan. Hell, I don't think they would have approved of a two year plan. I'm not giving Flip a pass on that, but we do have to recognize that there was clearly a win now directive from Taylor and the fans and decisions made in that situation are far tougher than long term plans.
3. I think Brewer's style of play is the type that has to fit into the team, rather than simply be added. When you have four other players on the floor with him that are playing well as they did early this season it allows him to be more focused on his role. Once Love and Martin start clanking shot after shot after shot and the team needs more scoring from the 3 he's no longer a good fit. Within his role I think he's a good, though not great addition, the key is making sure he can remain in that role.
Bottom line as many have said in other threads here is the problem begins at the top. For all his business success Taylor simply cannot pick a good talent to lead the team from a basketball perspective. As fans we owe him a debt of gratitude for saving the team from moving to New Orleans, yet beyond that he has been a disaster as a team owner.
The current situation leaves the team in the same situation as they were with KG, capped out and without a real team around the core of Love/Pek/Rubio. They can keep trying to move the chairs around the deck to find a combination that works, again just like they did with KG, or they can cut bait and start over. Talk about a rock and a hard place.
At least the Clippers fans had the beaches and bikinis to distract them.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
- Posts: 13844
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:00 am
Re: What happened???
A few thoughts....
- I for one am not calling for a rebuild, but I definitely think there should be a bit of a shakeup. I recommend putting swapping Luc for Brew in the starting lineup and shipping Barea out.
- It wasn't only folks around these parts that had the Wolves slated as a playoff team. Most NBA pundits looked at the roster and saw a playoff-caliber team. And in fact, we are a very solid team and we shouldn't completely rule out the playoffs yet (although the prospects are dimming fast). We play in an impossibly difficult conference, yet lead the league in blowout wins. We haven't done everything wrong.....
- There are some on this board who legitimately question the direction of the franchise and offer constructive solutions, which others are then free to debate, and then there are others who make just the occasional appearance to say, "I told you so" or "I was right all along" when their pet cause or beef with the franchise seems legitimized. I have a much greater degree of respect for folks that hang in there and interact on multiple fronts.
- As for Flip, I kind of agree with you. I think he definitely over-valued Brewer and Budinger. His Martin signing seemed like a decent risk. We would be in an even bigger world of hurt without some of the 3-point shooting he's given us. The Pek signing is fine in that the salary stays the same or goes down over the course of the contract, which means it will take a smaller and smaller bite out of the salary cap as a percentage over time. I think Flip absolutely botched the draft.
- As for Brewer, well, duh!, most any team that has four guys firing on all cylinders all at once can make that fifth guy look good.
- As for Adelman, he's the head coach and the buck ultimately stops there when it comes to execution on the floor. I think he did a great job last year taking a team that was absolutely wrecked by injuries and winning 32 games. That was over-achievement and he deserves a ton of credit. But this year....they are underachieving so far. He needs to find the right formula or move on. I'm willing to give him a little more time.
- I for one am not calling for a rebuild, but I definitely think there should be a bit of a shakeup. I recommend putting swapping Luc for Brew in the starting lineup and shipping Barea out.
- It wasn't only folks around these parts that had the Wolves slated as a playoff team. Most NBA pundits looked at the roster and saw a playoff-caliber team. And in fact, we are a very solid team and we shouldn't completely rule out the playoffs yet (although the prospects are dimming fast). We play in an impossibly difficult conference, yet lead the league in blowout wins. We haven't done everything wrong.....
- There are some on this board who legitimately question the direction of the franchise and offer constructive solutions, which others are then free to debate, and then there are others who make just the occasional appearance to say, "I told you so" or "I was right all along" when their pet cause or beef with the franchise seems legitimized. I have a much greater degree of respect for folks that hang in there and interact on multiple fronts.
- As for Flip, I kind of agree with you. I think he definitely over-valued Brewer and Budinger. His Martin signing seemed like a decent risk. We would be in an even bigger world of hurt without some of the 3-point shooting he's given us. The Pek signing is fine in that the salary stays the same or goes down over the course of the contract, which means it will take a smaller and smaller bite out of the salary cap as a percentage over time. I think Flip absolutely botched the draft.
- As for Brewer, well, duh!, most any team that has four guys firing on all cylinders all at once can make that fifth guy look good.
- As for Adelman, he's the head coach and the buck ultimately stops there when it comes to execution on the floor. I think he did a great job last year taking a team that was absolutely wrecked by injuries and winning 32 games. That was over-achievement and he deserves a ton of credit. But this year....they are underachieving so far. He needs to find the right formula or move on. I'm willing to give him a little more time.
Re: What happened???
Q12543 wrote:A few thoughts....
- I for one am not calling for a rebuild, but I definitely think there should be a bit of a shakeup. I recommend putting swapping Luc for Brew in the starting lineup and shipping Barea out.
- It wasn't only folks around these parts that had the Wolves slated as a playoff team. Most NBA pundits looked at the roster and saw a playoff-caliber team. And in fact, we are a very solid team and we shouldn't completely rule out the playoffs yet (although the prospects are dimming fast). We play in an impossibly difficult conference, yet lead the league in blowout wins. We haven't done everything wrong.....
- There are some on this board who legitimately question the direction of the franchise and offer constructive solutions, which others are then free to debate, and then there are others who make just the occasional appearance to say, "I told you so" or "I was right all along" when their pet cause or beef with the franchise seems legitimized. I have a much greater degree of respect for folks that hang in there and interact on multiple fronts.
- As for Flip, I kind of agree with you. I think he definitely over-valued Brewer and Budinger. His Martin signing seemed like a decent risk. We would be in an even bigger world of hurt without some of the 3-point shooting he's given us. The Pek signing is fine in that the salary stays the same or goes down over the course of the contract, which means it will take a smaller and smaller bite out of the salary cap as a percentage over time. I think Flip absolutely botched the draft.
- As for Brewer, well, duh!, most any team that has four guys firing on all cylinders all at once can make that fifth guy look good.
- As for Adelman, he's the head coach and the buck ultimately stops there when it comes to execution on the floor. I think he did a great job last year taking a team that was absolutely wrecked by injuries and winning 32 games. That was over-achievement and he deserves a ton of credit. But this year....they are underachieving so far. He needs to find the right formula or move on. I'm willing to give him a little more time.
I am not calling for a rebuild, but I am of the belief that we have botched the current rebuild. Due to Kahn playing hardball with Kevin on his contract and Adelman's win every game mentality , we felt pressured to speed up the building process, and I feel it took us off the correct track. We needed to secure the scoring/slashing style wing player before throwing in all of our chips, and we failed to do that.
I hope you're not responding to me about making an "occasional appearance" on this board. I have had very lengthy discussions regarding all of our players, FO, and coaching situations. Some things I am right about, and some I am ..... not so right about.
I would have let Pek dangle, and had no problem with him taking the QO for the year. He would have been a FA in the off season, but what we saved this year would have allowed us to match a much higher salary if need be, and also protected us in the event that injuries derailed him during the season. It was possible that his camp would have caved and taken a significantly lower amount or less years. 4/40 would have been much more agreeable, and made him a real asset if we wanted to move him.
Martin's contract length is what I have an issue with. He is worth what we are paying him, but he is likely untradeable due to the four years.
Don't know what the Brewer comment is regarding??? I have never thought of Brewer as an offensive option, and don't believe him to be a lockdown defender. I think he is similar to a mark madsen, in that he creates a little chaos. I suggested that he is playing too many minutes and can't maintain his frenetic pace.
Phenom, I was excited about the Adleman hire at the time as well, and liked hearing in an interview that he would shape his offense around the talent he had. I just don't think he has done that at all. I believe the "letting Ricky run free" was due to not being able to install of his complete offense right away.
I think we would be better with a defensive oriented coach, and then letting Ricky freelance a lot more. We seem to be too predictable on offense.
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Coolbreeze44
- Posts: 13192
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 am
Re: What happened???
Nah SJ, he's referring to me in his typical passive aggressive style. I haven't been able to post as much recently and when I cam on after a recent loss to vent some frustrations, that apparently touched a nerve with him. Sorry I can't be the model of what you want to see in a member Q. I realize you're observations are so much more well reasoned than mine. I'll try to be more like you going forward.
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markkbu [enjin:6588958]
- Posts: 939
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 am
Re: What happened???
Some thoughts on this discussion
D-Will was not doing well here. In his 11 games, he shot .352 FG%, .188 from 3, and had an eFG of 37%, with .1 assists per game. He is doing better on a worse team, which I think that most people expected would happen. Sactown fits D-Will well. Here he was doing very poorly. It gives him a new start......Similar to the Sac/Toronto trade both teams and players are better off for the trade.
I agree that a lot of people questioned the direction of the team a whole bunch. The direction of the team right now is better than we have seen in a very long time. (including the recent challenging losses). We need 14 more wins to be the best team that we have have in about 10 years. I believe that we will get more than 14 more wins and more importantly, we have a deep enough team, where that seems pretty obvious to me. I view building a winning program as in incremental process, some on this board view it as an instantaneous event. Just a difference of perspectives.
Anyone who evaluates Flip as a GM 39 games into his first season should, at least, acknowledge that an eval of him is very premature...............if your intent is to evaluate him based on tangible results. I would suggest that evaluating Flip should also be tempered by the shitty hand that he was left with.
Brewer started the season off well. His play has dropped off. As we criticize Brewer though........keep in mind that he is one of our most efficient scorers (seriously). Brewer has been asked to do far more than he is capable of. So, as people speak of how bad Brewer is, keep in mind that he is 2nd among the starters this month on FG% and eFG%, ahead of Love,Martin,and Rubio. For the season he is 3rd in eFG% behind Pek and Love. He should take less (ugly) jump shots than he does, and most games this month, he has had one of the higher eFG% on the team.
With all that said, we need him off the starting lineup IMHO.
D-Will was not doing well here. In his 11 games, he shot .352 FG%, .188 from 3, and had an eFG of 37%, with .1 assists per game. He is doing better on a worse team, which I think that most people expected would happen. Sactown fits D-Will well. Here he was doing very poorly. It gives him a new start......Similar to the Sac/Toronto trade both teams and players are better off for the trade.
I agree that a lot of people questioned the direction of the team a whole bunch. The direction of the team right now is better than we have seen in a very long time. (including the recent challenging losses). We need 14 more wins to be the best team that we have have in about 10 years. I believe that we will get more than 14 more wins and more importantly, we have a deep enough team, where that seems pretty obvious to me. I view building a winning program as in incremental process, some on this board view it as an instantaneous event. Just a difference of perspectives.
Anyone who evaluates Flip as a GM 39 games into his first season should, at least, acknowledge that an eval of him is very premature...............if your intent is to evaluate him based on tangible results. I would suggest that evaluating Flip should also be tempered by the shitty hand that he was left with.
Brewer started the season off well. His play has dropped off. As we criticize Brewer though........keep in mind that he is one of our most efficient scorers (seriously). Brewer has been asked to do far more than he is capable of. So, as people speak of how bad Brewer is, keep in mind that he is 2nd among the starters this month on FG% and eFG%, ahead of Love,Martin,and Rubio. For the season he is 3rd in eFG% behind Pek and Love. He should take less (ugly) jump shots than he does, and most games this month, he has had one of the higher eFG% on the team.
With all that said, we need him off the starting lineup IMHO.
Re: What happened???
Williams did bad here. But really no worse than Hummel and better than Shved even this year. We are no better off without in fact we are exactly the same since most of his comparable minutes have been going to Hummel and Shved. There is no way you can say we are better off based on his usage. Kahn, Adelman and Flip fucked up his development but in no way are we better off. At the most you could argue we are exactly the same. Which ultimately means SAC won the deal.
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markkbu [enjin:6588958]
- Posts: 939
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 am
Re: What happened???
thedoper wrote:Williams did bad here. But really no worse than Hummel and better than Shved even this year. We are no better off without in fact we are exactly the same since most of his comparable minutes have been going to Hummel and Shved. There is no way you can say we are better off based on his usage. Kahn, Adelman and Flip fucked up his development but in no way are we better off. At the most you could argue we are exactly the same. Which ultimately means SAC won the deal.
The bolded part is 100% incorrect.
Re: What happened???
markkbu wrote:thedoper wrote:Williams did bad here. But really no worse than Hummel and better than Shved even this year. We are no better off without in fact we are exactly the same since most of his comparable minutes have been going to Hummel and Shved. There is no way you can say we are better off based on his usage. Kahn, Adelman and Flip fucked up his development but in no way are we better off. At the most you could argue we are exactly the same. Which ultimately means SAC won the deal.
The bolded part is 100% incorrect.
Are you going to justify 100% with another 10 game split? I know it is not the size of your sample but how you use it.