Two Best and Two Worst
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Carlos Danger
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Two Best and Two Worst
We about 1/3 into this season. I realize it's still a small sample and everything can and will change. But as of 27 games into the year, who are the Wolves best two players and worst two players. Please include an explanation or metric to support your case. Anyone who's played a minute this year is eligible for selection. There are no right answers...only wrong ones. :-) I'm mostly curious if there is a consensus or if it's going to be all over the board.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
Excellent idea for a post. I'll also add that we should rule out players that haven't played much (Ricky Rubio, Kevin Martin, Nikola Pekovic, Glenn Robinson III, Robbie Hummel, Ronny Turiaf)
My Two Best: Gorgui Dieng and Mo Williams.
Dieng: He has his flaws, but we know what we're gonna get with him nightly. He rebounds well, facilitates the offense well for a big and can score the basketball when he gets some touches on the low block. He's not as much of a rim protector as most of had hoped, but he's the best we have right now by far. I love Gorgui, even though I think he isn't the long term answer for us at center.
Williams: The only guy that can organize the offense on this team currently. At times he's erratic. At times he's too "shoot first" of a point guard. But he's also somewhat reliable. I know he's gonna hit several mid-range Js a game. I know he'll likely hit a three as well. He's also been good in the assist department. In November he averaged 7 APG. He's had poor shooting games and he's a liability on defense, but if ole Maurice isn't in your top two this season, I don't know what Wolves you've been watching. Huge sigh of relief when he came back to the team after watching LaVine and Brewer run the offense.
EDIT: Shabazz Muhammad: He's been our most efficient, most reliable scorer this year and is lighting it up in December now that he's getting big minutes. In December, he's averaged 18 PPG on 51% shooting from the floor in 27 MPG while adding 5 RPG and 2 APG. His defense has been solid too with a few lapses here and there a game.
My Two Best: Gorgui Dieng and Mo Williams.
Dieng: He has his flaws, but we know what we're gonna get with him nightly. He rebounds well, facilitates the offense well for a big and can score the basketball when he gets some touches on the low block. He's not as much of a rim protector as most of had hoped, but he's the best we have right now by far. I love Gorgui, even though I think he isn't the long term answer for us at center.
Williams: The only guy that can organize the offense on this team currently. At times he's erratic. At times he's too "shoot first" of a point guard. But he's also somewhat reliable. I know he's gonna hit several mid-range Js a game. I know he'll likely hit a three as well. He's also been good in the assist department. In November he averaged 7 APG. He's had poor shooting games and he's a liability on defense, but if ole Maurice isn't in your top two this season, I don't know what Wolves you've been watching. Huge sigh of relief when he came back to the team after watching LaVine and Brewer run the offense.
EDIT: Shabazz Muhammad: He's been our most efficient, most reliable scorer this year and is lighting it up in December now that he's getting big minutes. In December, he's averaged 18 PPG on 51% shooting from the floor in 27 MPG while adding 5 RPG and 2 APG. His defense has been solid too with a few lapses here and there a game.
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SameOldNudityDrew
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
Two Best Seasons So Far: BAZZ AND ADRIEN!
Two Worst Seasons So Far: ZACH AND BUD!
If you literally take anybody who has played a minute, your strongest case would probably be Martin. Martin was rated high in advanced stats from 82games, and ESPN Real Plus-Minus, he leads the team in PPG, PPS, and second in PER, and he played a couple games of All-Star level basketball there that nobody else on the team has matched yet. Also shooting almost 50%.
But I'm not going to go with him because that's not much to go on having only played 8 or 9 games (a third of a third of the season!), and that's why I'm also not considering Rubio, although even in his small sample size he wasn't quite blowing anybody away although we've obviously missed him. What's more, it's more interesting to pick the next guys. And here, I'd initially go with Bazz and Dieng, though you could make an honorable mention for Jeff Adrien and Corey Brewer here. Bazz has played well, scoring well off the bench, shooting a high %, bringing a lot of hustle, also has the team's highest PER, and is rated well by 82games though not so much ESPN's Real Plus-Minus. Still, tough to pick two guys better than him so far. I'd also throw in Dieng, whose man defense has been weak, but who has been getting blocks and steals at a nice clip and who has also shot the ball well (even from tough spots on the floor) although he doesn't shoot it enough, has the third highest PER, the third highest real plus-minus according to ESPN, although 82 games isn't as high on him. Adrien and Brewer should also be up there. Adrien's given this team some much needed toughness, especially on defense, and his impact is also noted in some of the advanced stats, with 82games, and has a fairly high PER, although not quite as high with real plus-minus. His PPS is also really high. Actually, you could argue he's actually been better than Dieng so far. He's probably been our best defensive player but on the worst defensive team in the league, that's not exactly high praise. Still, nobody even knew this guy existed until a few weeks ago. Brewer was the heart of soul of this team until we traded him. Typical Corey play with some great plays and some head-scratchers, but he was single-handedly keeping our running game alive for awhile and energizing the rest of the team. Still, too many holes in his game to list him as a top two guy, so I'd go with BAZZ AND ADRIEN!
As for the two worst, I'd definitely go with Zach and Bud. Bud's coming off those surgeries, and has shown some flashes in the last couple games, but overall, he's been playing really badly. Shooting just 37% and that's basically all he brings to the table, so it's not surprising his PER is a lowly 10. 82games and real plus minus also give him really poor scores, and it's not surprising. But definitely the worst player we've had statistically has been Zach. It's not really his fault. He's never played PG. He's not ready to start. But he's being asked to do both in the West on a team that has few offensive weapons. He's shows some flashes of brilliance like that Laker game, but the stats have been really ugly. He's the worst rated guy in the league on ESPN's real plus-minus by a healthy margin. 82games has him ranked as the worst on our team. His PER is 8.7, worst on our team (except Turiaf who basically never played). His assist to turnover ratio as our PG is worse than not only Mo and Rubio, but also Corey Brewer and JEFF ADRIEN, Bennett's is equal, and Dieng and Hummel are just .1 behind. He's shooting only 39% from the field, including 27% from 3. By many measures, he's having the worst first third of the season of any player on the team. What's unsettling is that you can also see Wiggins and Bennett down there toward the bottom of the stats in many measures. It's not completely surprising. Bennett had a terrible year last year and is having blister issues and can't see the floor consistently this year, and he's also relying on a inefficient offensive game that shows up in his really low PPS and other stats. And Wiggins is a rookie. A #1 pick so the expectations are high, definitely too high in retrospect, but he's still a rookie. Right now, he's not as much of a liability as LaVine, so I wouldn't put him in the bottom two, but he and Bennett deserve mention. Still I'd say the two players who have had the worst seasons so far have been ZACH AND BUD!
ESPN Team Stats
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/min/minnesota-timberwolves
82Games
http://www.82games.com/1415/1415MIN.HTM
ESPN Real Plus-Minus
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1
EDIT [Good call on Mo, Cam. His advanced stats aren't particularly pretty, but from a purely "keeping the wheels from falling off" standpoint, he's been a big help keeping the offense together. I still might not include him over Adrien, but this would be a boring thread if everybody agreed!]
Two Worst Seasons So Far: ZACH AND BUD!
If you literally take anybody who has played a minute, your strongest case would probably be Martin. Martin was rated high in advanced stats from 82games, and ESPN Real Plus-Minus, he leads the team in PPG, PPS, and second in PER, and he played a couple games of All-Star level basketball there that nobody else on the team has matched yet. Also shooting almost 50%.
But I'm not going to go with him because that's not much to go on having only played 8 or 9 games (a third of a third of the season!), and that's why I'm also not considering Rubio, although even in his small sample size he wasn't quite blowing anybody away although we've obviously missed him. What's more, it's more interesting to pick the next guys. And here, I'd initially go with Bazz and Dieng, though you could make an honorable mention for Jeff Adrien and Corey Brewer here. Bazz has played well, scoring well off the bench, shooting a high %, bringing a lot of hustle, also has the team's highest PER, and is rated well by 82games though not so much ESPN's Real Plus-Minus. Still, tough to pick two guys better than him so far. I'd also throw in Dieng, whose man defense has been weak, but who has been getting blocks and steals at a nice clip and who has also shot the ball well (even from tough spots on the floor) although he doesn't shoot it enough, has the third highest PER, the third highest real plus-minus according to ESPN, although 82 games isn't as high on him. Adrien and Brewer should also be up there. Adrien's given this team some much needed toughness, especially on defense, and his impact is also noted in some of the advanced stats, with 82games, and has a fairly high PER, although not quite as high with real plus-minus. His PPS is also really high. Actually, you could argue he's actually been better than Dieng so far. He's probably been our best defensive player but on the worst defensive team in the league, that's not exactly high praise. Still, nobody even knew this guy existed until a few weeks ago. Brewer was the heart of soul of this team until we traded him. Typical Corey play with some great plays and some head-scratchers, but he was single-handedly keeping our running game alive for awhile and energizing the rest of the team. Still, too many holes in his game to list him as a top two guy, so I'd go with BAZZ AND ADRIEN!
As for the two worst, I'd definitely go with Zach and Bud. Bud's coming off those surgeries, and has shown some flashes in the last couple games, but overall, he's been playing really badly. Shooting just 37% and that's basically all he brings to the table, so it's not surprising his PER is a lowly 10. 82games and real plus minus also give him really poor scores, and it's not surprising. But definitely the worst player we've had statistically has been Zach. It's not really his fault. He's never played PG. He's not ready to start. But he's being asked to do both in the West on a team that has few offensive weapons. He's shows some flashes of brilliance like that Laker game, but the stats have been really ugly. He's the worst rated guy in the league on ESPN's real plus-minus by a healthy margin. 82games has him ranked as the worst on our team. His PER is 8.7, worst on our team (except Turiaf who basically never played). His assist to turnover ratio as our PG is worse than not only Mo and Rubio, but also Corey Brewer and JEFF ADRIEN, Bennett's is equal, and Dieng and Hummel are just .1 behind. He's shooting only 39% from the field, including 27% from 3. By many measures, he's having the worst first third of the season of any player on the team. What's unsettling is that you can also see Wiggins and Bennett down there toward the bottom of the stats in many measures. It's not completely surprising. Bennett had a terrible year last year and is having blister issues and can't see the floor consistently this year, and he's also relying on a inefficient offensive game that shows up in his really low PPS and other stats. And Wiggins is a rookie. A #1 pick so the expectations are high, definitely too high in retrospect, but he's still a rookie. Right now, he's not as much of a liability as LaVine, so I wouldn't put him in the bottom two, but he and Bennett deserve mention. Still I'd say the two players who have had the worst seasons so far have been ZACH AND BUD!
ESPN Team Stats
http://espn.go.com/nba/team/stats/_/name/min/minnesota-timberwolves
82Games
http://www.82games.com/1415/1415MIN.HTM
ESPN Real Plus-Minus
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/1
EDIT [Good call on Mo, Cam. His advanced stats aren't particularly pretty, but from a purely "keeping the wheels from falling off" standpoint, he's been a big help keeping the offense together. I still might not include him over Adrien, but this would be a boring thread if everybody agreed!]
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
My Two Worst: Chase Budinger and Anthony Bennett
I feel like the reasons have been said already. You could put LaVine here too, but I like his defense more than most.
I feel like the reasons have been said already. You could put LaVine here too, but I like his defense more than most.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
For those that enjoy +/-, Thad Young has been our best player. Gorgui's in that range as well.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
Gorgui Dieng's 2014 season: 28.0 MPG, 9.2 PPG (51.2 FG%, 80 FT%), 8.0 RPG, 2.0 APG, 1.5 BPG, 1.0 SPG
Shabazz Muhammad's last 13 games: 27.6 MPG, 19.0 PPG (52.7 FG%, 71 FT%) and 5.0 RPG.
Shabazz Muhammad's last 13 games: 27.6 MPG, 19.0 PPG (52.7 FG%, 71 FT%) and 5.0 RPG.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
Two Best - Shabazz and Wiggins
Two Worst - Budinger and Thad
Shabazz should be obvious. Wiggins is included for his two way play and focus the opposing teams give him.
Bud has been more than awful save for a couple games, and Thad is the worst defensive player the TWolves have ever had. He also sucks on offense.
Two Worst - Budinger and Thad
Shabazz should be obvious. Wiggins is included for his two way play and focus the opposing teams give him.
Bud has been more than awful save for a couple games, and Thad is the worst defensive player the TWolves have ever had. He also sucks on offense.
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Carlos Danger
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
Good responses. Interesting to read how others think/feel and evaluate. Again - no right answers and many different ways to approach this.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
"Thad is the worst defensive player the TWolves have ever had. He also sucks on offense."
This is dumb, but since you won't defend it with fact, it doesn't hold much weight to me.
This is dumb, but since you won't defend it with fact, it doesn't hold much weight to me.
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Coolbreeze44
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Re: Two Best and Two Worst
Camden wrote:"Thad is the worst defensive player the TWolves have ever had. He also sucks on offense."
This is dumb, but since you won't defend it with fact, it doesn't hold much weight to me.
Well it held enough weight for you to be compelled to make a snarky comment. Tell me who has been a worse defensive player.