Jokic

[Lipoli390]

Embiid won the League MVP this season. But there should be no doubt that the best player in the League is Jokic. What he does is amazing. His stats and his impact on the team speak for themselves. But when you watch him you see so many things that go beyond the stats. On Denver’s last possession Jokic repeatedly got the ball immediately back to Murray every time he touched it. Murray was hot - totally zoned in - and Jokic knew it. Not surprisingly, Murray scored. Just a small example of the the super high basketball IQ the Jokic possesses. I’ve rated Giannis as the League’s best player for the past few years. He’s still a clear #2 in my book, but Jokic is the clearly #1 in my view.

[WildWolf2813]

Remember when Towns and Jokic were actually comparable?


I don't know how Towns sits back and watches all his contemporaries pass him by and doesn't take a long look in the mirror and decides to change a whole lot about himself as well as his game.

[Lipoli390]

Remember when Towns and Jokic were actually comparable?


I don't know how Towns sits back and watches all his contemporaries pass him by and doesn't take a long look in the mirror and decides to change a whole lot about himself as well as his game.

KAT sometimes seems stubbornly oblivious to reality. But to be fair, I wouldn’t say all or even a lot of his contemporaries are passing him by. Jokic and Giannis have certainly passed him. Embiid was always expected to be great and has largely met those expectations although he hasn’t made the NBA finals and fell flat in this year’s playoffs as his scoring averaged dipped from 33 points to 23. Those three players have clearly been better than KAT with the former two starting behind and then passing him by. But few players have been as consistently productive or efficient as KAT. And credit KAT for improving his defense from bad to mid-tier the past couple years.

KAT has the physical skills to be at the same level as Jokic - a great offensive big who rebounds and passes well but is only mediocre defensively. I think the difference is IQ. KAT was a good student academically in high school and college, but he has a pretty bad basketball IQ in my view. And while I don’t want to make excuses for him falling short of expectations, it’s important to keep in mind that the Wolves organization hasn’t provided the complementary players or stability that Jokic and Giannis have had.

[Monster]

Remember when Towns and Jokic were actually comparable?


I don't know how Towns sits back and watches all his contemporaries pass him by and doesn't take a long look in the mirror and decides to change a whole lot about himself as well as his game.

KAT sometimes seems stubbornly oblivious to reality. But to be fair, I wouldn’t say all or even a lot of his contemporaries are passing him by. Jokic and Giannis have certainly passed him. Embiid was always expected to be great and has largely met those expectations although he hasn’t made the NBA finals and fell flat in this year’s playoffs as his scoring averaged dipped from 33 points to 23. Those three players have clearly been better than KAT with the former two starting behind and then passing him by. But few players have been as consistently productive or efficient as KAT. And credit KAT for improving his defense from bad to mid-tier the past couple years.

KAT has the physical skills to be at the same level as Jokic - a great offensive big who rebounds and passes well but is only mediocre defensively. I think the difference is IQ. KAT was a good student academically in high school and college, but he has a pretty bad basketball IQ in my view. And while I don’t want to make excuses for him falling short of expectations, it’s important to keep in mind that the Wolves organization hasn’t provided the complementary players or stability that Jokic and Giannis have had.

Yes it’s worth acknowledging the Wolves as a poor franchise while others are clearly better for those other guys. Towns health the last couple years is a legit thing that’s likely held him back too. I’m not saying he would have reached those guys levels but it’s not just him not reaching it because of one thing like he didn’t work hard enough or being self aware enough or whatever.

Comparing towns to these other guys just shows how development, health and trajectory isn’t certain for many reasons. Let’s also remember that at one point Jokic decided he was gonna be more serious about taking care of his body and I think that mattered. I’m glad he did as I am a fan of the game and I like seeing any player reach their potential whether they are a Timberwolf or Nugget or…probably even a Laker. Lol

[AbeVigodaLive]

I recently checked Towns stats for some other reason. I had forgotten that in his 2nd season...

25.1 ppg
12.7 reb
2.7 ast
54.2% fg

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And he was a 28 ppg /13 reb / 59% fg / 39% 3fg guy the final 50 games of that season.

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He was only 21 years old. I don't think there's an NBA fan alive who'd have thought that would remain the best extended stretch of games in his career. I don't think there's an NBA fan alive who would NOT think that where he is in his career six years later isn't a disappointment.

[Monster]

I recently checked Towns stats for some other reason. I had forgotten that in his 2nd season...

25.1 ppg
12.7 reb
2.7 ast
54.2% fg

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And he was a 28 ppg /13 reb / 59% fg / 39% 3fg guy the final 50 games of that season.

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He was only 21 years old. I don't think there's an NBA fan alive who'd have thought that would remain the best extended stretch of games in his career. I don't think there's an NBA fan alive who would NOT think that where he is in his career six years later isn't a disappointment.

Good points. A different angle is who would have guessed after that season that Embiid would play more games than Towns over the next what 6 years of their careers?

[FNG]

KAT is not Jokic...I think we can all agree on that. But I also think his injury-riddled 2022-3 has many of us undervaluing just how good he is. KAT played 74 games in 2021-2, and put up the following stats:

24.6 PPG
9.8 RPG
3.6 APG
41% 3-point percentage
64% TS%
4.4 VORP (11th in the Association, and trailing only Embiid and Jokic among centers)
Positive net rating of 11 (121 offense, 110 defense)

Only his rebound numbers don't compare favorably to his best seasons. And I would argue that playing next to Vando who averaged close to 9 RPG had a lot to do with his fewer rebounds. When TC evaluates KAT's worth in looking at potential trades, I hope he gives more credence to his healthy 2021-2 season than his injury-riddled 2022-3 29-game season.

[Wolvesfan21]

We should have traded KAT instead of Jimmy. Wiggins would have been a fine number 2. Sure injuries have been an issue but I never thought Jimmy would have so much more success then KAT at the time.

But then would Jimmy would have the success here he didn't in Philly either. And we wouldn't have Ant so actually it probably worked ut better.

[WildWolf2813]

KAT is not Jokic...I think we can all agree on that. But I also think his injury-riddled 2022-3 has many of us undervaluing just how good he is. KAT played 74 games in 2021-2, and put up the following stats:

24.6 PPG
9.8 RPG
3.6 APG
41% 3-point percentage
64% TS%
4.4 VORP (11th in the Association, and trailing only Embiid and Jokic among centers)
Positive net rating of 11 (121 offense, 110 defense)

Only his rebound numbers don't compare favorably to his best seasons. And I would argue that playing next to Vando who averaged close to 9 RPG had a lot to do with his fewer rebounds. When TC evaluates KAT's worth in looking at potential trades, I hope he gives more credence to his healthy 2021-2 season than his injury-riddled 2022-3 29-game season.

When it comes to KAT, he's not really judged by his numbers. If anything, people think his numbers don't impact the team the way they should. It's more about his temperament, his fouling, his contract. He's presented an image of himself that people can't unsee because he hasn't given a reason for anyone to feel differently about him.

[FNG]

Yeah, I get that, WW, and I've been a critic of his temperament as much as anyone here. And the offensive fouling continues to be as issue...he needs to get much smarter in that area. But I encourage fans to reassess KAT's on-court temperament. I detest the whining we see from many NBA players, and especially whining that results in not getting back on defense. I don't know if Wolves management has talked with Karl about this, but I noticed a significant change in his demeanor this season. In a league full of complainers and whiners, I actually now find KAT much less offensive than I used to.

KAT is a unique offensive performer who is often challenged on defense. But with 4 good to very good defenders next to him in the starting lineup, we don't need him to be an all-NBA defensive player. We just need him to hit 3-pointers at a 40% rate to provide spacing for our inside scorers and get his double digit (or near double digit) rebounds every night.