Turnovers and backup PG thread

[FNG]

This topic seems to come up often in other threads and is likely to continue to be a talker, so maybe we need a dedicated thread.

The Wolves lead the West with a 24-7 record, but Finchie has looked increasingly uncomfortable with his team's play the past three games despite going 2-1 against good teams. Not a surprise, as our assists to turnover ratio has been horrible recently. 24/19 last game, 23/22 against Dallas, 22/21 against OkC. Before that we had a very nice 31/12 against the Kings in a decisive win, so a better ratio is possible.

I think the start to the season is not a mirage, and many pundits agree...we have the makings of a championship team. But NBA champions don't have nearly as many turnovers as assists. Take a look at the box scores from the finals last June for instance...Denver had better than a 2 to 1 ratio for the series. Many of us here agree: a poor assist to turnover ratio (and the lack of a true backup PG) is the biggest problem for this team right now. The purpose of this thread is to monitor this stat, to talk about how big a problem it is, and to evaluate potential fixes.

I'll start. I think it's a big problem, and Finchie's grumpiness over the holidays tells me that he agrees. But I'm on the fence in terms of how to fix it, so I'll tee up some discussion topics:

1) Lighten up...we're 24-7 and this isn't a big problem. This team plays a style which is going to lead to more turnovers and fewer assists, and it's mostly working. Don't change anything.

2) The rotation is fine...Finchie is just coaching poorly. We know we have a top-notch starting PG in Bite Bite, but our offense looks really clumsy when he sits. More often than not NAW or Ant is the guy initiating the offense when Conley is out, and neither is a PG. SloMo on the other hand was a PG in college (Zach Lavine backed him up) and is a better option than NAW or Ant to initiate. Give him the keys.

3) JMac is out of the rotation, but he regularly excels in assists to turnovers...better than 4 to 1 for his career! He would likely solve our A:TO problem, but he is small on defense and hasn't shown he can reliably knock down the open three. For some reason he seems to be in Finchie's doghouse, but could he be the solution here?

4) The answer to this problem is not on our roster right now, and TC needs to find a way to bring in a suitable backup PG. Tyus Jones is mentioned a lot, but he's starting for the Wizards and might be expensive to get. Is he a viable option, and who are some other possible targets. What would it cost to get them, and would the other team be willing to give them up?

Or am I framing the issue wrong...are there other ways to approach it. Your thoughts...

[Monster]

Good thread FNG.

As for McLaughlin I don’t think he is in Finch’s doghouse at all. The reality is the Wolves paid Shake Milton 5 million to be a significant contributor. He was supposed to play in front of McLaughlin. Meanwhile Troy Brown Jr was paid a little less at around 4 million and before injuries he was out of the rotation. So far Shake has overall been bad and we have seen that he is in the doghouse and McLaughlin at times lately has actually gotten minutes over him. Troy Brown Jr has played well overall but with McDaniels back he doesn’t get much burn himself. Those 2 players were rotation guys and sometimes starters for teams that were looking to contend last year. McLaughlin was hurt and has been getting a little run lately. That shows how bad Shake has been but it was pretty clear to me going into the season that McLaughlin wasn’t a guy they planned to play much if other guys were healthy.

Meanwhile NAW while not a classic PG he can bring the ball up get things going and stay out of the way while making a play here and there and play good defense. He used to be a turnover guy but has toned that down with the Wolves although some of that is he doesn’t look to score all that much.

Ultimately I think if the Wolves keep turning the ball over at a high rate we will start to see more minutes here and there from McLaughlin if he is healthy and playing reasonably well. He doesn’t have to make his shots to have a positive impact on the game.

As for the turnover problem…I still think it’s a problem but some good teams in the past turned the ball over at a comparable rate that the Wolves did. Last year’s Denver team averaged less than 1 turnover a game than the Wolves are this year. The Warriors teams turned over the ball around 15 times a game too. Of course they took and made lots of 3’s but I don’t think the Wolves are going to have to worry about going up against teams like that but they could use some more 3 point shooting. It’s not easy to get a volume 3 point shooter that’s also worthwhile on defense and it’s even harder to get a PG type that does all 3 of those things. Tyus Jones is having a nice season but he isn’t a volume guy but of course that’s not the biggest reason we would acquire him.

Meanwhile how much would it cost to acquire Delon Wright? Shake Milton and some sort of half decent asset? I think a number of people here would be fine including Wendell Moore in the deal. I know Wright hasn’t shot the 3 well this year but he has been decent in the past on low volume but that’s not his value it’s more his ability as a combo guard that is at least solid defensively. He seems like a guy that stock is probably lower but could end up being reasonably valuable. He fits the idea of a bigger guard that the Wolves seem to like.

[Q-is-here]

Timely thread FNG, as we just got some new data from the Knicks game....

I think if we are serious about being contenders, it's a combination of #3 and #4. JMac has shown in the past to be a very capable backup PG in the regular season. I worry about how he holds up in a playoff scenario though, which is why I think even if he plays well, we need to seriously explore #4 as well. Playing JMac now prepares the team for an even better version of him later.

[Lipoli390]

Timely thread FNG, as we just got some new data from the Knicks game....

I think if we are serious about being contenders, it's a combination of #3 and #4. JMac has shown in the past to be a very capable backup PG in the regular season. I worry about how he holds up in a playoff scenario though, which is why I think even if he plays well, we need to seriously explore #4 as well. Playing JMac now prepares the team for an even better version of him later.

I agree it’s a combination of 3 and 4. I want to see more JMac going forward. That will help. But ultimately, I don’t think we have the roster to compete for a championship. I see the turnovers and poor assist/turnover ratio largely as a reflection of the roster. There’s also a lack of shooting/scoring depth on this roster. We’re too reliant on two players (KAT and Ant) for points and have only one really good offensive player coming off the bench (Naz). I have no doubt we’re a playoff team and should be a top 5 team if healthy. But I think our Western Conference leading success to date has been a bit of a mirage. Offense takes longer than defense to develop because so much of it is timing, rhythm and working effectively together as a unit. As better offensive teams begin to hit their stride our defensive won’t be as effective. That means many of the games we previously won scoring 105-115 points will be losses as the season progresses.

We don’t have the assets to acquire a player like Tyus. The Wizards will be looking for young talent and picks because they’re in rebound mode. They wouldn’t be interested in Slo Mo except for salary match purposes and we don’t have the young talent or draft assets to outbid any other competing teams. It’s hard to see how we can make any deals that significantly improve our offensive personnel within also hurting our defense on which we depend so heavily. And with Rudy, we still have a spacing problem. We just don’t have the open driving lanes that would would optimize scoring opportunities for Ant, Jaden and even KAT.

Perhaps the Orlando Magic would be interested in swapping Fultz for Slo Mo. The Magic are surprisingly in contention and a savvy veteran like Slo Mo might be someone they covet. They have an oversupply of PGs and I think Fultz (if healthy) could really improve our PG depth and offensive firepower.

[Q-is-here]

Timely thread FNG, as we just got some new data from the Knicks game....

I think if we are serious about being contenders, it's a combination of #3 and #4. JMac has shown in the past to be a very capable backup PG in the regular season. I worry about how he holds up in a playoff scenario though, which is why I think even if he plays well, we need to seriously explore #4 as well. Playing JMac now prepares the team for an even better version of him later.

I agree it’s a combination of 3 and 4. I want to see more JMac going forward. That will help. But ultimately, I don’t think we have the roster to compete for a championship. I see the turnovers and poor assist/turnover ratio largely as a reflection of the roster. There’s also a lack of shooting/scoring depth on this roster. We’re too reliant on two players (KAT and Ant) for points and have only one really good offensive player coming off the bench (Naz). I have no doubt we’re a playoff team and should be a top 5 team if healthy. But I think our Western Conference leading success to date has been a bit of a mirage. Offense takes longer than defense to develop because so much of it is timing, rhythm and working effectively together as a unit. As better offensive teams begin to hit their stride our defensive won’t be as effective. That means many of the games we previously won scoring 105-115 points will be losses as the season progresses.

We don’t have the assets to acquire a player like Tyus. The Wizards will be looking for young talent and picks because they’re in rebound mode. They wouldn’t be interested in Slo Mo except for salary match purposes and we don’t have the young talent or draft assets to outbid any other competing teams. It’s hard to see how we can make any deals that significantly improve our offensive personnel within also hurting our defense on which we depend so heavily. And with Rudy, we still have a spacing problem. We just don’t have the open driving lanes that would would optimize scoring opportunities for Ant, Jaden and even KAT.

Perhaps the Orlando Magic would be interested in swapping Fultz for Slo Mo. The Magic are surprisingly in contention and a savvy veteran like Slo Mo might be someone they covet. They have an oversupply of PGs and I think Fultz (if healthy) could really improve our PG depth and offensive firepower.

Yeah, multiple teams will probably be bidding on Tyus....we don't have a lot in the piggy bank of prospects and picks to trade. Dennis Schroder was another name mentioned. He might be slightly less hard to get, but again, I could see multiple teams lining up for him. Monster mentioned Delon Wright which is an interesting name. He is a defensive-minded guard that is more of a game manager than play maker at PG, but he may actually be a realistic target.

[thedoper]

Monte Morris is out there too. I assume Detroit is going another full rebuild. Have they already given up on Ivey too? I'd trade our prospects for Ivey.

[FNG]

Some good takes here, guys. My sense is that opinions in this thread will be rather knee jerk depending on immediate history...mine today will be at least!

Yea, I'm solidly in 3-land today after the Knicks game. While I don't expect JMac to play like that all the time, I do think he is capable of 15-20 minutes off the bench at PG. I would suggest a 9-man rotation (or 8-man on nights when Finchie doesn't want to play TBJ) that might even include some time with Bite Bite and JMac out there together like yesterday. Some might say that is too small a backcourt and there are times it might be. But they are both so smart and disruptive on defense, I think it would work a lot of nights. I would even consider subbing JMac in for Rudy at the 8 minute mark...having 4 good (to great) three-point shooters next to a quick decision-making distributor like Jordan is an attractive option. But mostly JMac would be used as a backup to Conley to make sure we are keeping Mike fresh for the 4th quarter.

I'm not opposed to option 4, as long as it didn't cost us anyone in the rotation...i.e. someone would have to be willing to take prospects like Mlller and draft picks. I don't see this as a likely scenario.

Finally, I think some of our turnover issue is on Finchie, not only for not playing JMac. He needs to be tougher with SloMo, and tell him he needs to take the open 3-pointer if he wants to keep his minutes. When his man sags off him by 10 feet, it means KAT and Ant are going to run into 2 or three guys on their drives to the basket, which makes it more likely that the ball is going to get poked away. SloMo needs to take that shot, and if he can't make 30% of them, he may find himself on the bench...but I think he can.

[60WinTim]

You have a math problem there, FNG. Assuming JMac is in, playing TBJ would be a 10-man rotation!

Finch indicated both yesterday and today that JMac is in. Between the team's ongoing turnover problem, and JMac's really nice game against the Knicks, it seems like a done deal.

We've seen a lot of complaints about the Wolves offense. But the main culprit is the turnovers. Take those out and the offense is just fine.

[Monster]

Brown Jr is a solid player but with him in the rotation it means there is a lack of a guard in the rotation with basically it just being Conley Edwards NAW (more of a caretaker PG) and Anderson who plays as a forward. The Knicks game was an extreme example of the difference it was with McLaughlin in compared to Brown.

Brown has done some nice things but the last stretch he hasn’t done anything that makes him better than say if Jake Layman was out there. Brown is a better player than Layman but he hasn’t done anything that makes me want him out there considering what the Wolves need. He will likely still have value this year but it makes sense to give McLaughlin some run and see what he can do.

[Monster]

Monte Morris is out there too. I assume Detroit is going another full rebuild. Have they already given up on Ivey too? I'd trade our prospects for Ivey.

Morris hasn’t played this season yet with a quad injury so he would need to be healthy and actually playing well to make a deal for him especially since he makes almost 10 million a year so matching salaries etc might be tricky.

A side note how are they that bad in Detroit? They are really young but wowzers.