Relax everyone

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

Please stop with the comparisons to last year. Last year we started off bad and then... a bunch of teams got key injuries. Sure we got better, but I'd argue that the bigger reason for improved record was our health compared to other teams. Please stop acting like we were a legit 46 win team last year and please stop acting like we were even a legit playoff team. Like lip said, we were absolutely a team on the rise, but we had NO business making a "win now" move, especially the wrong win now move. This is being proven over and over again to start this season. I know you're all just looking for hope but there is no logical basis for comparing last year to this year.

The trade was a bet on Ant, Jaden and even Nowell making leaps too. We haven't seen it yet...

It was also a trade that was suppose to allow DLO to have his best year ever. Not happening yet....

You can say you knew all these players sucked or wouldn't progress but most thought they would and we still have time to se it.

We still needed a Center, KAT has proven over and over he is a liability and foul machine on defense at the 5. He simply never progressed into a good defender. KAT is better suited as a 4, he just needs to defend the 3 and rebound, quit getting sucked in so much on drives. I'm sick of seeing guys hit those wide open corner 3's. Goes for other Wolves defenders as well.

I'm still happy with the trade. Rudy is a 3 time DPOY. He is the best defender in the NBA. You should be able to win 50 games with a bunch of scrubs and Rudy guarding the rim. I still expect the Wolves to do it.

Finally lets just say they didn't make any trades and kept the picks. Do you really think you expect to find a good starter or all star with say the 20th pick? The only way to guarantee improvement is to trade those garbage late 1sts and go for it.

I share D-Loser's view of the Gobert trade, but my take is a bit different. The Gobert trade was clearly a high-risk bet. As you said it was largely a bet on the development of Ant, McDaniels and Nowell. But the Gobert deal is the sort of bet you make when you're desperate or when you're very close and just need that one piece to push you across the championship threshold. The reason it was a bad deal in my view is that neither situation existed when the deal was made. The Wolves finished strong with 46 wins and took Memphis 6 deep in the playoffs. So the franchise certainly wasn't desperate for something big. Yet, the team's success wasn't long-lived enough to conclude that this team was one player away from being a championship contender - especially if that one player isn't a Shaq, LeBron, Kobe or Durant.

The smart thing to do after last season was to spend the off season focused on (1) monitoring and developing the young guys like Ant - making sure, for example, that he was taking his conditioning and the game of basketball seriously; and (2) perhaps tweaking the roster though free agency (SLO MO) and perhaps a minor deal or two. The key then would have been to use this season to test the development of the team's young players along with the solidity and sustainability of last season's success. The team would have had trade assets, including future picks, and cap room to maneuver in response to this season. Based on what TC said when he came here, that's exactly what we should have expected. He said, his main goal was to stay out of the way. He also said he needed time to find out what he had here with this team. He also said there are no short cuts to success. TC had a philosophy or approach that made sense, but the Gobert deal ran contrary to that philosophy. There are certainly good arguments for the Gobert deal and the jury is still out on the final verdict. But I continue to believe that the deal did not make sense for this team at this time. And it did not square with the approach TC said he was going to take.

Yes, exactly. I'll never understand the desperation of this trade. I thought they were in such a great spot after that series. I always laugh when you bring up what TC said... and how he DID the exact opposite lol

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

I'll call myself one of the biggest hatters on the boards right now. Why? Expectations - You overpay for a fit that may or may not work out and yeah there are going to be high expectations.

KAT says it's championship or bust and then has similar issues to every other year we've seen him? Where has he improved? People and announcers are claiming his passing? Really? He won the skills competition, he's always had immense talent as a scorer and creator of offense. Some of you are giving credit saying he is more emotionally controlled? What in prime time games on ESPN and TNT with his father at the game? I'm not giving credit to that at all, he still is as emotionally flawed as ever more worried about a refs call then getting back on defense.

You guys keep relaxing, I'll remain in reality and continue to say I don't see a team with a leader. I see more of a flawed team that looks exposable.

Keep relaxing #Championship or Bust

We have a couple of long-standing traditions with the Timberwolves.

1) Having a perceived "empty stats" big guy (See Garnett, Love, Towns) on losing teams... who we blame for losing.
2) Having A LOT more patience for young guys.

Towns is about to turn 27. Yes... he's still mostly the same guy he's been for years. He has flaws. He can be maddening to watch. He can be dumb. Petulant. Whiny. Et al. That being said, it's been good enough to be an All Star and sometimes 3rd team All NBA guy.

Towns right now:
22.3 ppg / 9.0 reb / 5.6 ast / 50.6% fg / 36.4% 3fg / +0.5 VORP / +3.5 BPM / 1.4 Win Shares

I've heard multiple talking heads already declare Anthony Edwards the "best" player on the Timberwolves. I assume it's in part because he's the shiny new toy, showed one of the most impressive midseason improvements as a rookie and continued improving in year 2.

But he arrived for the season overweight and out of shape.

Edwards right now:
22.2 ppg / 5.7 reb / 3.5 ast / 45.5% fg / 34.9% 3fg / -0.1 VORP / -2.5 BPM / 0.4 WS

Jaden McDaniels was reportedly "untouchable" in the Gobert trade, which meant the Wolves mortgaged more of the team's future in his growth and development. He's a long, rangy big wing which every team covets. Year 3 is a big year for most "untouchable" guys.

McDaniels right now:
9.9 ppg / 3.0 reb / 1.2 ast / 55.1% fg / 30.8% 3fg / 0.0 VORP / -2.6 BPM / 0.5 WS

D'Angelo Russell. Well, we're all probably in agreement with this guy, sans Camden. But just for fun...

Russell right now:
13.5 ppg / 4.0 reb / 5.6 ast / 37.9% fg / 29.7% 3fg / 0.0 VORP / -2.0 BPM / 0.1 WS

____________________

Hey, I get the frustration with Towns. If we're being honest, he's not an easy guy to root for because of the same issues we see over and over and over again. But, that's still been good enough for him to be a net positive player game after game, week after week, season after season.

Flaws and all... Towns remains the team's clearcut best player right now. And that's the team's problem... not Towns' fault.

Actually Abe, Towns could shut the hell up when it comes to crying at the refs. He could start giving a shit about getting back on defense, he could play so hard that you actually see him gassed on the floor knowing he's actually going all out. He could set the example and demand more effort from these young players. Instead he makes dumb comments like Championship or bust and cries to the refs the majority of the game. Follows that up with spurts of effort, highs and lows!

Not bad Abe, but I disagree with your last three words also - "not towns fault" - this IS precisely Towns fault. We had to acquire another Supermax center because apparently our current super max center isn't expected to be a two way player... Well ok Kat, you better damn well be Jokic, Dirk or Larry Bird on offense. Yes, Kat is a net positive player, but for what he's making and how long he's been here, he needs to be more, a lot more! I think Kat will step up and have a great season, but if this team continues to struggle, I believe that is squarely on his shoulders at this point.

[Wolvesfan21]

Please stop with the comparisons to last year. Last year we started off bad and then... a bunch of teams got key injuries. Sure we got better, but I'd argue that the bigger reason for improved record was our health compared to other teams. Please stop acting like we were a legit 46 win team last year and please stop acting like we were even a legit playoff team. Like lip said, we were absolutely a team on the rise, but we had NO business making a "win now" move, especially the wrong win now move. This is being proven over and over again to start this season. I know you're all just looking for hope but there is no logical basis for comparing last year to this year.

The trade was a bet on Ant, Jaden and even Nowell making leaps too. We haven't seen it yet...

It was also a trade that was suppose to allow DLO to have his best year ever. Not happening yet....

You can say you knew all these players sucked or wouldn't progress but most thought they would and we still have time to se it.

We still needed a Center, KAT has proven over and over he is a liability and foul machine on defense at the 5. He simply never progressed into a good defender. KAT is better suited as a 4, he just needs to defend the 3 and rebound, quit getting sucked in so much on drives. I'm sick of seeing guys hit those wide open corner 3's. Goes for other Wolves defenders as well.

I'm still happy with the trade. Rudy is a 3 time DPOY. He is the best defender in the NBA. You should be able to win 50 games with a bunch of scrubs and Rudy guarding the rim. I still expect the Wolves to do it.

Finally lets just say they didn't make any trades and kept the picks. Do you really think you expect to find a good starter or all star with say the 20th pick? The only way to guarantee improvement is to trade those garbage late 1sts and go for it.

I agree with most of this. I will say that I knew Dlo sucked and the trade sucked... the other struggles I didn't expect. What are you saying about a starter with the 20th pick? I don't think we needed a starter. I was good with leaving vando starting and then bring Kessler, Naz and an MLE FA off the bench.

As much as I liked Vando he was "just" an energy guy who can offensively rebound and defend. He's not that special of a player. Now I say just because we haven't seen a lot of guys on the Wolves play hard over the years. Now if he continues to start shooting 3's at a nice clip, that I completely unexpected. I said if he could simply stand in the corner and hit open 3's his value would be way higher. But he wasn't that with the Wolves. And defensively I don't think he rebounded very well, I know as a team we struggled and I think he was maybe avg at best.

Kessler is still an unknown. He has shown some flashes but at best he is a Rudy light type of player.

Beast and Bev, Bease is a 3P gunner and a poor defender. Not that special. Bev is old and he never was a long term player any way you slice it.

We essentially gave up a bunch of hope for the real deal, chances are those hope and prayers won't pan out which is why I'd rather have the sure thing. I just don't see how people can undervalue having the best defender in the NBA. Now we need others to play defense as well, but saying that when Rudy is on the court it's a top 10 defense.

My point earlier is that the younger guys were and are expected to take the next step. They haven't yet. I think it was more then likely they would and the Wolves future good, great or bad hinges mostly on them.

If they were still playing crappy and we had Vando, Kessler and Bease it wouldn't matter. Sure we'd have a 20th overall pick or whatever this next offseason, but like I said how can you really expect to get a game changer with that pick? I'll take the sure thing every time over the hope and prayers of the draft.

[Tactical unit]

Please stop with the comparisons to last year. Last year we started off bad and then... a bunch of teams got key injuries. Sure we got better, but I'd argue that the bigger reason for improved record was our health compared to other teams. Please stop acting like we were a legit 46 win team last year and please stop acting like we were even a legit playoff team. Like lip said, we were absolutely a team on the rise, but we had NO business making a "win now" move, especially the wrong win now move. This is being proven over and over again to start this season. I know you're all just looking for hope but there is no logical basis for comparing last year to this year.

The trade was a bet on Ant, Jaden and even Nowell making leaps too. We haven't seen it yet...

It was also a trade that was suppose to allow DLO to have his best year ever. Not happening yet....

You can say you knew all these players sucked or wouldn't progress but most thought they would and we still have time to se it.

We still needed a Center, KAT has proven over and over he is a liability and foul machine on defense at the 5. He simply never progressed into a good defender. KAT is better suited as a 4, he just needs to defend the 3 and rebound, quit getting sucked in so much on drives. I'm sick of seeing guys hit those wide open corner 3's. Goes for other Wolves defenders as well.

I'm still happy with the trade. Rudy is a 3 time DPOY. He is the best defender in the NBA. You should be able to win 50 games with a bunch of scrubs and Rudy guarding the rim. I still expect the Wolves to do it.

Finally lets just say they didn't make any trades and kept the picks. Do you really think you expect to find a good starter or all star with say the 20th pick? The only way to guarantee improvement is to trade those garbage late 1sts and go for it.

I agree with most of this. I will say that I knew Dlo sucked and the trade sucked... the other struggles I didn't expect. What are you saying about a starter with the 20th pick? I don't think we needed a starter. I was good with leaving vando starting and then bring Kessler, Naz and an MLE FA off the bench.

As much as I liked Vando he was "just" an energy guy who can offensively rebound and defend. He's not that special of a player. Now I say just because we haven't seen a lot of guys on the Wolves play hard over the years. Now if he continues to start shooting 3's at a nice clip, that I completely unexpected. I said if he could simply stand in the corner and hit open 3's his value would be way higher. But he wasn't that with the Wolves. And defensively I don't think he rebounded very well, I know as a team we struggled and I think he was maybe avg at best.

Kessler is still an unknown. He has shown some flashes but at best he is a Rudy light type of player.

Beast and Bev, Bease is a 3P gunner and a poor defender. Not that special. Bev is old and he never was a long term player any way you slice it.

We essentially gave up a bunch of hope for the real deal, chances are those hope and prayers won't pan out which is why I'd rather have the sure thing. I just don't see how people can undervalue having the best defender in the NBA. Now we need others to play defense as well, but saying that when Rudy is on the court it's a top 10 defense.

My point earlier is that the younger guys were and are expected to take the next step. They haven't yet. I think it was more then likely they would and the Wolves future good, great or bad hinges mostly on them.

If they were still playing crappy and we had Vando, Kessler and Bease it wouldn't matter. Sure we'd have a 20th overall pick or whatever this next offseason, but like I said how can you really expect to get a game changer with that pick? I'll take the sure thing every time over the hope and prayers of the draft.

You assume it's the 20th pick when really we have no idea where that pick will be and it's not just one pick. It's a ton of picks, a swap and Kessler does a lot of what Rudy does. We can just sum up the trade as an overpay the type of price you would give up to land AD in his prime, hell even KD would have cost less.

This hope and a prayer narrative for the picks given up is crap. Look at it as assets or value, you need them to be able to make moves, you need them to get prospects that can increase massively in value and out perform there contract. Rudy auto leads to a top 10 defense? You realize his defense is pretty much elite with in 4ft of the basket which is highly important area but he sags so hard in pick and roll. It will remain to be unknown but my perspective is that in the playoffs vs elite talent that will lead mismatches and regular season defensive stats won't matter.

Rudy is far less the problem than the overall tone of the team and lack of a leader. You can't win meaningful games with lackluster effort and non-stop complaining. The refs could care less and you probably get less calls the more you complain.

[Wolvesfan21]

Please stop with the comparisons to last year. Last year we started off bad and then... a bunch of teams got key injuries. Sure we got better, but I'd argue that the bigger reason for improved record was our health compared to other teams. Please stop acting like we were a legit 46 win team last year and please stop acting like we were even a legit playoff team. Like lip said, we were absolutely a team on the rise, but we had NO business making a "win now" move, especially the wrong win now move. This is being proven over and over again to start this season. I know you're all just looking for hope but there is no logical basis for comparing last year to this year.

The trade was a bet on Ant, Jaden and even Nowell making leaps too. We haven't seen it yet...

It was also a trade that was suppose to allow DLO to have his best year ever. Not happening yet....

You can say you knew all these players sucked or wouldn't progress but most thought they would and we still have time to se it.

We still needed a Center, KAT has proven over and over he is a liability and foul machine on defense at the 5. He simply never progressed into a good defender. KAT is better suited as a 4, he just needs to defend the 3 and rebound, quit getting sucked in so much on drives. I'm sick of seeing guys hit those wide open corner 3's. Goes for other Wolves defenders as well.

I'm still happy with the trade. Rudy is a 3 time DPOY. He is the best defender in the NBA. You should be able to win 50 games with a bunch of scrubs and Rudy guarding the rim. I still expect the Wolves to do it.

Finally lets just say they didn't make any trades and kept the picks. Do you really think you expect to find a good starter or all star with say the 20th pick? The only way to guarantee improvement is to trade those garbage late 1sts and go for it.

I agree with most of this. I will say that I knew Dlo sucked and the trade sucked... the other struggles I didn't expect. What are you saying about a starter with the 20th pick? I don't think we needed a starter. I was good with leaving vando starting and then bring Kessler, Naz and an MLE FA off the bench.

As much as I liked Vando he was "just" an energy guy who can offensively rebound and defend. He's not that special of a player. Now I say just because we haven't seen a lot of guys on the Wolves play hard over the years. Now if he continues to start shooting 3's at a nice clip, that I completely unexpected. I said if he could simply stand in the corner and hit open 3's his value would be way higher. But he wasn't that with the Wolves. And defensively I don't think he rebounded very well, I know as a team we struggled and I think he was maybe avg at best.

Kessler is still an unknown. He has shown some flashes but at best he is a Rudy light type of player.

Beast and Bev, Bease is a 3P gunner and a poor defender. Not that special. Bev is old and he never was a long term player any way you slice it.

We essentially gave up a bunch of hope for the real deal, chances are those hope and prayers won't pan out which is why I'd rather have the sure thing. I just don't see how people can undervalue having the best defender in the NBA. Now we need others to play defense as well, but saying that when Rudy is on the court it's a top 10 defense.

My point earlier is that the younger guys were and are expected to take the next step. They haven't yet. I think it was more then likely they would and the Wolves future good, great or bad hinges mostly on them.

If they were still playing crappy and we had Vando, Kessler and Bease it wouldn't matter. Sure we'd have a 20th overall pick or whatever this next offseason, but like I said how can you really expect to get a game changer with that pick? I'll take the sure thing every time over the hope and prayers of the draft.

You assume it's the 20th pick when really we have no idea where that pick will be and it's not just one pick. It's a ton of picks, a swap and Kessler does a lot of what Rudy does. We can just sum up the trade as an overpay the type of price you would give up to land AD in his prime, hell even KD would have cost less.

This hope and a prayer narrative for the picks given up is crap. Look at it as assets or value, you need them to be able to make moves, you need them to get prospects that can increase massively in value and out perform there contract. Rudy auto leads to a top 10 defense? You realize his defense is pretty much elite with in 4ft of the basket which is highly important area but he sags so hard in pick and roll. It will remain to be unknown but my perspective is that in the playoffs vs elite talent that will lead mismatches and regular season defensive stats won't matter.

Rudy is far less the problem than the overall tone of the team and lack of a leader. You can't win meaningful games with lackluster effort and non-stop complaining. The refs could care less and you probably get less calls the more you complain.

We'll never know what the picks would have been without the trade but likely lower initially in the first few. Now if Ant doesn't become the All NBA player then screw it. The team would suck and still suck either way. I guess you could then argue that possibly a pick or two could have made a difference in 5-8 years.

I'm still happy with the trade overall. NBA picks are not valuable unless they are top 10 and even then top 3. The odds of getting a starter never mind All Star is super slim mid late 1st round. It just doesn't happen very often. Maybe once every couple years and that is the entire draft. Not just one pick. The picks to me don't matter much unless the Wolves turn into a dumpster fire. Which shouldn't happen barring injuries.

I'll take the best defender in the NBA over Vando, Bease, Kessler and some picks. We are not a market who signs high quality FA's. We had to trade to get the best and we did it.

[Lipoli390]

Vando wasn't just an energy guy. He averaged 8.5 rebounds a game. He's a terrific ball handler and good passer who could grab a rebound and run the break. Yes, he was also an energy guy. And let's not dismiss the value of his energy. His energy, along with Beverley's, made a huge positive difference for the team in addition to the value of their production.

Regarding future draft picks, all 1st round picks have significant. They have value in terms of the prospects a team has the chance to select, including prospects selected in the bottom half of the 1st round. Think Desmond Bane for example. But picks also have substantial transactional value as trade chips. By trading 4 for their next 7 first round picks, the Wolves have not only cut themselves off from the prospects they could have selected with those picks; they have also cut themselves off from trading any of those 7 future picks. And if the Wolves continue to play the way they've been playing so far this season, the Wolves will end up losing a top 14 pick, or possibly a top 10 or even a top 4 pick, in what's expected to be a very deep, talented draft.

There's a reason NBA analysts around the Country though the Wolves overpaid for Gobert. The narrative about Minnesota being a tough place to attract free agents is old and overstated. If anything, the challenge of attracting top free agents is yet another argument for the Wolves to keep their draft picks because that's how most successful teams, especially mid-market teams, build their core rosters. The Gobert trade might have made sense if we knew we had a team on the cusp of crossing the championship threshold. But we didn't know that and no one should have seriously thought we did. So much of that assumption hinged on a then 20 year old who is now proving why you don't go all in on massive deals based on expectations related to a 20 year old.

[Wolvesfan21]

Vando wasn't just an energy guy. He averaged 8.5 rebounds a game. He's a terrific ball handler and good passer who could grab a rebound and run the break. Yes, he was also an energy guy. And let's not dismiss the value of his energy. His energy, along with Beverley's, made a huge positive difference for the team in addition to the value of their production.

Regarding future draft picks, all 1st round picks have significant. They have value in terms of the prospects a team has the chance to select, including prospects selected in the bottom half of the 1st round. Think Desmond Bane for example. But picks also have substantial transactional value as trade chips. By trading 4 for their next 7 first round picks, the Wolves have not only cut themselves off from the prospects they could have selected with those picks; they have also cut themselves off from trading any of those 7 future picks. And if the Wolves continue to play the way they've been playing so far this season, the Wolves will end up losing a top 14 pick, or possibly a top 10 or even a top 4 pick, in what's expected to be a very deep, talented draft.

There's a reason NBA analysts around the Country though the Wolves overpaid for Gobert. The narrative about Minnesota being a tough place to attract free agents is old and overstated. If anything, the challenge of attracting top free agents is yet another argument for the Wolves to keep their draft picks because that's how most successful teams, especially mid-market teams, build their core rosters. The Gobert trade might have made sense if we knew we had a team on the cusp of crossing the championship threshold. But we didn't know that and no one should have seriously thought we did. So much of that assumption hinged on a then 20 year old who is now proving why you don't go all in on massive deals based on expectations related to a 20 year old.

I don't think he is LeBron in his prime. Decent handle and OK passer for a 6-8 guy. But other then that I respect your position.

Obviously we are missing some energy like Vando had and also the grittiness and toughness that Bev provided.

Little side track note but a lot of how Finch runs the offense is having the players figure things out versus structured plays and sets. Last year they started slow and same as this year. Hopefully sooner rather then later they do start to gel, but I see Finchs style of offense as one that can take time with new additions. Guys have to start figuring each other out. I'm not too concerned yet. If they are still struggling 25-30 games in then for sure.

[Tactical unit]

Vando wasn't just an energy guy. He averaged 8.5 rebounds a game. He's a terrific ball handler and good passer who could grab a rebound and run the break. Yes, he was also an energy guy. And let's not dismiss the value of his energy. His energy, along with Beverley's, made a huge positive difference for the team in addition to the value of their production.

Regarding future draft picks, all 1st round picks have significant. They have value in terms of the prospects a team has the chance to select, including prospects selected in the bottom half of the 1st round. Think Desmond Bane for example. But picks also have substantial transactional value as trade chips. By trading 4 for their next 7 first round picks, the Wolves have not only cut themselves off from the prospects they could have selected with those picks; they have also cut themselves off from trading any of those 7 future picks. And if the Wolves continue to play the way they've been playing so far this season, the Wolves will end up losing a top 14 pick, or possibly a top 10 or even a top 4 pick, in what's expected to be a very deep, talented draft.

There's a reason NBA analysts around the Country though the Wolves overpaid for Gobert. The narrative about Minnesota being a tough place to attract free agents is old and overstated. If anything, the challenge of attracting top free agents is yet another argument for the Wolves to keep their draft picks because that's how most successful teams, especially mid-market teams, build their core rosters. The Gobert trade might have made sense if we knew we had a team on the cusp of crossing the championship threshold. But we didn't know that and no one should have seriously thought we did. So much of that assumption hinged on a then 20 year old who is now proving why you don't go all in on massive deals based on expectations related to a 20 year old.

I don't think he is LeBron in his prime. Decent handle and OK passer for a 6-8 guy. But other then that I respect your position.

Obviously we are missing some energy like Vando had and also the grittiness and toughness that Bev provided.

Little side track note but a lot of how Finch runs the offense is having the players figure things out versus structured plays and sets. Last year they started slow and same as this year. Hopefully sooner rather then later they do start to gel, but I see Finchs style of offense as one that can take time with new additions. Guys have to start figuring each other out. I'm not too concerned yet. If they are still struggling 25-30 games in then for sure.

Your not worried? They just lost to the Suns with out Cam Johnson and Chris Paul

There wins on the year are not impressive at all!

You should be really worried for this team, but then again what can I expect from a guy that doesn't value draft picks.

[Coolbreeze44]

Here are the moves that I could see happening:

Trade KAT- Could be a viable option later in the season but way to soon now

Trade DLO and Naz for Simmons - probably a pipe dream

Bench DLO for JMac. Could happen any time.

My favorite: Bench DLO, start Ant at the 1 forcing him to be more of a facilitator. Start Jaden at the two - he can play that just as well as the 3. Start Slomo at the 3. There would be much more sharing of the basketball and we would be a better rebounding team.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Who says no (salary complications aside)...

in a Westbrook for Russell trade right now?