Would you do Beasley for Collins

[TheFuture]

I'm reading that Atlanta remains one of the few teams that are still high on Jarrett Culver. Maybe something like this could work?

Wolves:
- John Collins
- Tony Snell

Hawks:
- 2024 first-round pick (top-10 protected)
- Jarrett Culver
- Jarred Vanderbilt
- Juan Hernangomez

God I hope the team doesn't double down to fix their mistakes by moving another first round pick. Especially to pay a guy more than he is worth. I liked your idea of Larry Nance for cheap a whole lot more.

Fair. I totally get not wanting to cough up another future draft pick, but I would say that if the Wolves were to make this trade and things didn't work out they could likely recoup that asset in moving John Collins down the road.

I do not trust the current FO to be competent. Hell, we have never had one. I won't and can't argue about the D'Lo trade, because we have not even been able to see the duo together.

But hell no on trading for Collins when we do not have a solid evaluation of our current roster. Especially when I know Glen will triple down and pay him much more than he is worth, just because he already invested.

I didn't even pay enough attention to know that Saunders was fired. Now Glen should grow another ball and fire Rosas.

[Lipoli390]

As everyone knows, I wanted the Wolves to draft Collins and was really pissed when Thibodeau took Patton instead. Collins has become the player I thought he'd be and I'm still a big fan. But I've never considered him a good defender and I'm wary of putting too much stock in his defensive stats this year. it really helps his stats playing with a true defensive stopper, Clint Capella. I'm also wary of trading for a guy who will immediately be in a position to command a max salary.

To be clear, none of my concerns would stop me from exploring trade options to acquire him this month. But those concerns would definitely limit what I'd be willing to give up to get him. I'll also note that Atlanta has reportedly been interested in trading Collins for quite a while now. As part of that, it's been reported they don't want to pay him the max deal that he'll want. It's interesting that even though Collins has been impressive from day one, the Hawks still went out of their way to acquire Capella and also drafted Bruno Fernando, Okongwu, and Hunter - all centers and power forwards. They also acquired power forwards Gallinari and Bogdanovic. They seem more than ready to move on from Collins and I'm not sure how much of a bidding war there will actually be for him. So I'd drive a hard bargain - something Wolves front office idiots generally don't do.

Bottom line is that I wouldn't give up KAT, Beasley or Ant. Moreover, I wouldn't give up more than one future 1st and that pick would have to have full lottery protection. I'd be all in on Cam's suggested deal, but with the pick lottery protected. If I had to, I'd agree to substitute McDaniels for Vanderbilt, but I'd only do so reluctantly and if absolutely necessary. I actually think that would be enough. If not, then we should keep our powder dry and look for deals on draft day.

The Hawks have a lot of injury issues at the PG and wing positions. Rondo has been a physical wreck this season. Cam Reddish is in a walking boot with an Achilles issue. Hunter will probably miss the rest of March recovering from knee surgery. Kris Dunn continues to have knee issues. They have Capella, Gallinari, Bogdanovic, Huerter and Young all healthy and playing well. The Hawks might be interested in Okogie as a defensive stopper off the bench. They might be high on Culver who, in spite of his broken shot, is quite talented and still very young. Maybe they're interested in Ricky as a vet backup to Young given Rondo's ongoing physical issues.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I'm pretty skeptical a Collins deal makes sense for us for a couple reasons.

1) The money. Dude wants the max even though the consensus is he really doesn't deserve it. Where is this team going with KAT, DLO, and Collins as three max guys? Who could we possibly put around them with the small amount of salary cap space we'd have left that would actually make us a contender? We've already got one guy getting the max who shouldn't be getting it. Adding a second would absolutely put a low ceiling on this team for the foreseeable future, and not just while these three are on the roster. We're already complaining about the first rounder we had to give up to dump Wiggins. What about the future assets we'd probably have to give up to dump DLO and/or Collins given that their perceived value is so far below what they would be paid?

2) We absolutely need a defensive-minded 4 next to KAT, and even moreso with the backcourt we've got. I see Cam's article shows Collins' defensive numbers look pretty good this year, but that's IF he's next to Capela and/or Hunter, both of whom are legitimately really good defenders. His track record and the eye test tell me he's not that great. I don't see him as a particularly switchable big despite his athleticism. Watch how upright he plays, especially defensively. I just never really see him get into a real defensive stance. At the same time, he's also still pretty skinny. He's basically got the body of a wing without the lateral (as opposed to vertical) athleticism or, frankly, the mentality to defend well and aggressively on both the perimeter and in the post. He got some blocks last year, but he's not really a guy who intimidates opponents in the paint defensively.

This feels a bit like DLO again. "Hey, there's a guy with good offensive numbers who's probably available. Sure, he can't/won't defend and yes, it looks like it'd cost us the max, but we need to do something to stay relevant." I could end up being wrong, and god if we trade for him I surely hope so, but it just feels like a desperation move to me, and that's even if we don't give up assets for him (not that this team has much of value to give up!). He'd be a better fit in terms of position than Beasley or Rubio, but for that money? No thank you.

[Monster]

Wolves history of trading away first round picks for players: Budinger, Webster, Payne, DLO and Cash (over Rudy Gobert). 0 for 5. I believe Wolves had choice of Bennett or a first and another miss. Did I miss any?

D'Angelo Russell doesn't deserve to be in that group and even his biggest detractors would likely attest to that. Anyways, I do understand the viewpoint of "don't trade future first-round picks," but I also realize that young and proven talent is difficult to acquire, especially for this franchise. If you can do so as a front office then I will usually support it if the cost is reasonable.

Also, I believe the Wolves could have had Thaddeus Young or Miami's first-round pick and took the [at the time] 26-year old Young, which I thought was an alright decision. Flip Saunders shot himself in the foot when he decided to trade Young later that season for five games of then 38-year old Kevin Garnett. Ah, memories...

I thought I was among his biggest detractors and I'd say DLO does belong in the bad first round pick trades, especially since its like the most valuable first rounder given up by the Wolves (plus right now, we give up pick 31 too). Its becoming a consensus opinion even in the national media that the DLO trade was a bad one for the Wolves (and I know you are in the minority in liking the trade) but the only difference is that DLO is still playing and there is some hope that DLO (though I think very slim odds) justifies the trade.

Well the Wolves basically gave up a first round pick to acquire Beasley. That deal has worked out nicely. It's one of the few things keeping Rosas from looking like a total buffoon.

I think Bennett was needed to be included more because of salary than any type of significant asset. I believe he had some value as a young player but I do not think we gave up a draft asset to add him. Like Cam said the Wolves traded Young away to the Nets who later traded him for a late 1st round pick Caris Lavert. Ah to have a GM who actually knows what they are doing.

[FNG]

Lip, congratulations on being on the Collins train from the start. I have to admit I didn't know much about him in college, but I have liked him from Day 1 in the pros...he has been terrific offensively and improves every year on defense. And he's young and still improving. Look at his numbers the past 65 games...almost a full season: 20.4 points, 9.3 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, over 40% on threes, and a true shooting percentage of 65.5%. Those are KAT-like numbers! And Drew and Lip, I think you undersell him on defense. Yes, there does seem to be a national narrative that he is average at best on defense, but those who follow the Hawks think otherwise, and the numbers show he is actually a very good defender...and has been for at least the past two seasons (I admit he was not good at all his first two seasons. Playing next to Capella this year is a big help, but his defense was very good in 2019-20 pre-Clint also) . This is a guy who will definitely command a max salary as a true 2-way player.

Fans often try to package garbage they aren't interested in keeping on their own team with the thought that three or four pieces of garbage might equal one superstar...garbage unfortunately is not cumulative in assessing trade value. Any deal for Collins will have to at least include Beasley, and more likely may have to include Ant or DLO. The numbers work easier with an Ant or Beas deal, but like others, I'm concerned about a max salary trio of KAT/Collinns/DLO, so if the Hawks would have any interest in pairing DLO with Young, Rosas has to try to make a deal work involving Russell. I know there are complications with sign-and-trade deals and that's why they are so rare, But I would love to see Rosas negotiate a straight-up deal of DLO for Collins with Atlanta signing Collins to a deal that matches DLO's. I don't know if Atlanta would find DLO to be a good return for Collins, but I think that trade would be very good for the Wolves.

And even better, Abe, Collins fits with the Wolves timel...never mind.

[FNG]

Wolves history of trading away first round picks for players: Budinger, Webster, Payne, DLO and Cash (over Rudy Gobert). 0 for 5. I believe Wolves had choice of Bennett or a first and another miss. Did I miss any?

D'Angelo Russell doesn't deserve to be in that group and even his biggest detractors would likely attest to that. Anyways, I do understand the viewpoint of "don't trade future first-round picks," but I also realize that young and proven talent is difficult to acquire, especially for this franchise. If you can do so as a front office then I will usually support it if the cost is reasonable.

Also, I believe the Wolves could have had Thaddeus Young or Miami's first-round pick and took the [at the time] 26-year old Young, which I thought was an alright decision. Flip Saunders shot himself in the foot when he decided to trade Young later that season for five games of then 38-year old Kevin Garnett. Ah, memories...

I thought I was among his biggest detractors and I'd say DLO does belong in the bad first round pick trades, especially since its like the most valuable first rounder given up by the Wolves (plus right now, we give up pick 31 too). Its becoming a consensus opinion even in the national media that the DLO trade was a bad one for the Wolves (and I know you are in the minority in liking the trade) but the only difference is that DLO is still playing and there is some hope that DLO (though I think very slim odds) justifies the trade.

I get that we really wanted Wig out of here, but as we continue to watch the brilliance of Cunningham and Suggs (both even better than we might have thought when they were HS stars), does anyone here still want to put forth the argument that DLO alone is better for this team than Wig (or Wig and what he could bring back in a trade) and Cunningham? We may have vastly different views here on the value of DLO, but even his biggest advocates would have to really stretch to support that narrative.

And my biggest problem with Rosas is that I don't think we are using hindsight at all to conclude this was a terrible deal. Wig and DLO have proven to be exactly who we thought they were pre-trade...talented players, neither of whom deserve a max salary. And we have also known for a long time how strong this draft was going to be, and that without a trade (or even with) there was a very good chance the Wolves would finish poorly enough in the standings to have a good chance of grabbing one of the top players in this stacked draft. We simply could not afford to lose a 2021 first round pick absent a Godfather offer we couldn't refuse.

I can't even imagine the total consumption of alcohol and drugs this board is going to consume draft night to kill the pain of watching GS walk off with a potential superstar that could have been ours.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Wig and DLO have proven to be exactly who we thought they were pre-trade...talented players, neither of whom deserve a max salary. .

The Wolves are 26 - 74 over the past two seasons.

Would the team have been any worse with Batum's corpse + contract?

It's now expiring by the way... and the Wolves STILL don't have a clue whether Russell and Towns will work together... and they're out either a lottery pick in 2021 or a potentially high draft pick in 2022...

[FNG]

Wig and DLO have proven to be exactly who we thought they were pre-trade...talented players, neither of whom deserve a max salary. .

The Wolves are 26 - 74 over the past two seasons.

Would the team have been any worse with Batum's corpse + contract?

It's now expiring by the way... and the Wolves STILL don't have a clue whether Russell and Towns will work together... and they're out either a lottery pick in 2021 or a potentially high draft pick in 2022...

Any worse? I would argue we might even be better this year with Batum's 29 MPG rather than Wig or DLO. In fact, we might have even improved enough to put ourselves out of the Cunningham sweepstakes.

Batum might have been a corpse last season, but somehow he has found the fountain of youth this season. He's arguably the Clippers 4th most effective player behind their 2 stars and Beverly. An eFG% of 62%, 44% on threes, and defense that. while not vintage Batum, still is far better than anything Wig or DLO bring.

Oh to go back in time and trade Wig straight up for Batum...

[AbeVigodaLive]

Wig and DLO have proven to be exactly who we thought they were pre-trade...talented players, neither of whom deserve a max salary. .

The Wolves are 26 - 74 over the past two seasons.

Would the team have been any worse with Batum's corpse + contract?

It's now expiring by the way... and the Wolves STILL don't have a clue whether Russell and Towns will work together... and they're out either a lottery pick in 2021 or a potentially high draft pick in 2022...

Any worse? I would argue we might even be better this year with Batum's 29 MPG rather than Wig or DLO. In fact, we might have even improved enough to put ourselves out of the Cunningham sweepstakes.

Batum might have been a corpse last season, but somehow he has found the fountain of youth this season. He's arguably the Clippers 4th most effective player behind their 2 stars and Beverly. An eFG% of 62%, 44% on threes, and defense that. while not vintage Batum, still is far better than anything Wig or DLO bring.

Oh to go back in time and trade Wig straight up for Batum...

Yes. We've discussed Batum's resurgence previously. But I think there's some fool's gold there.

He's playing with very talented teammates who know how to play basketball... something he wouldn't have in abundance in Minnesota. I also don't think it's coincidence that he's playing better when his next million-dollar contract is on the line...

But yes... while that proposed trade had little or no short-term value... at least the Wolves could have moved on much faster. As it is... they've mortgaged the future to spin their wheels even more. Neither option was great. But ripping off band-aids never is much fun.

[Monster]

Is Collins worth twice the salary of Beasley plus having to give up some other asset/s? A lot of that depends on the defensive abilities of both players. Is Collins solid there? Is Beasley actually terrible or maybe he is somewhat serviceable if he was playing with some better defensive players and system?

Thinking of having to give up something quite valuable to land Collins really sucks when we could have just drafted him in the first place...good grief how many times have I typed this point on this board? Ugh