PorkChop wrote:Is Butler considered a superstar on this board? Honest question.
If you look at the impact he made in MN, Philly and now Miami after what he did in Chicago I think he would have to be considered a superstar. He's more of a support star than most of the top guys, but I think you take Jimmy over PG13 any day of the week now.
Being better than Paul George isn't a measuring stick. His impact with the other teams didn't result in anything earth shattering.
PG has made 4 all-defense teams and 5 all-nba teams in 9 seasons (not counting the season he missed due to injury) including 1st team in both last year with a 3rd place in MVP voting. Making 1st team All-NBA with Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi and KD all healthy takes a special season. I don't really get what your definition of a superstar is if that doesn't meet the criteria.
PorkChop wrote:Is Butler considered a superstar on this board? Honest question.
If you look at the impact he made in MN, Philly and now Miami after what he did in Chicago I think he would have to be considered a superstar. He's more of a support star than most of the top guys, but I think you take Jimmy over PG13 any day of the week now.
Being better than Paul George isn't a measuring stick. His impact with the other teams didn't result in anything earth shattering.
PG has made 4 all-defense teams and 5 all-nba teams in 9 seasons (not counting the season he missed due to injury) including 1st team in both last year with a 3rd place in MVP voting. Making 1st team All-NBA with Lebron, Giannis, Kawhi and KD all healthy takes a special season. I don't really get what your definition of a superstar is if that doesn't meet the criteria.
Is Jimmy Butler a Superstar? I'd say no but there are few players in the league that are able to impact he game all over the floor like he can when healthy. I think you can be a great player (what the conversation is about) and not be an actual superstar. I think a piece of being a superstar is being one of the infinitely marketable guys too. Jimmy is big but not that big in that regard.
Jonathon Givoney knows the prospects that come into the league about as well as anyone can. It's his entire career. He is obviously biased towards the players but he says where guys land both in terms of organizations and the fit is a really big deal. I do wonder if we take the true superstars/greats journey for granted. What if something different had happened? Would they have been great or just really damn good? Ultimately we can never know unless there is some actual story of a fork in the road like happened in college with Dennis Rodman.
I used to not be sure whether Donovan was a good coach or just one that kept the success going. After Durant left that franchise just kept winning above what was expected. Did they still have some talent? Sure. Is Sam Presti a really good GM? Yep. I tend to think Donovan is a pretty good coach. The Bulls got themselves A good hire. They are gonna be better hiring a guy that actually knows what he is doing than some hot assistant name or whatever. That franchise needs some competence. And Donovan should bring it. There is some nice talent in Chicago it might be a fun team to be a fan of even if it doesn't become a championship level squad. Some of the pieces actually fit.
Again Rosas is gambling not just on Ryan Saunders but this coaching staff. It's sort of a Minnesota Twins model in that it's a highly collaborative effort. If it doesn't work that going to be a big setback. Only time will tell.
monsterpile wrote:Jonathon Givoney knows the prospects that come into the league about as well as anyone can. It's his entire career. He is obviously biased towards the players but he says where guys land both in terms of organizations and the fit is a really big deal. I do wonder if we take the true superstars/greats journey for granted. What if something different had happened? Would they have been great or just really damn good? Ultimately we can never know unless there is some actual story of a fork in the road like happened in college with Dennis Rodman.
I used to not be sure whether Donovan was a good coach or just one that kept the success going. After Durant left that franchise just kept winning above what was expected. Did they still have some talent? Sure. Is Sam Presti a really good GM? Yep. I tend to think Donovan is a pretty good coach. The Bulls got themselves A good hire. They are gonna be better hiring a guy that actually knows what he is doing than some hot assistant name or whatever. That franchise needs some competence. And Donovan should bring it. There is some nice talent in Chicago it might be a fun team to be a fan of even if it doesn't become a championship level squad. Some of the pieces actually fit.
Again Rosas is gambling not just on Ryan Saunders but this coaching staff. It's sort of a Minnesota Twins model in that it's a highly collaborative effort. If it doesn't work that going to be a big setback. Only time will tell.
Nice post, Monster.
Although I tend to think that a great player will become great no matter where he plays, I agree with you that fit does matter for many players, including some very good ones. It probably depends on the player. Jordan was going to become the best player to ever play no matter where he landed. Same for Hakeem and many others. But where someone plays and who he plays for can matter a lot for many others. Rodman is a great example.
I think your analyses of Donovan and the Bulls are spot on. The Ryan Saunders gamble seems like a pretty bad one to me, but I like your comparison to the Twins approach. And as your said, time will tell.
monsterpile wrote:Jonathon Givoney knows the prospects that come into the league about as well as anyone can. It's his entire career. He is obviously biased towards the players but he says where guys land both in terms of organizations and the fit is a really big deal. I do wonder if we take the true superstars/greats journey for granted. What if something different had happened? Would they have been great or just really damn good? Ultimately we can never know unless there is some actual story of a fork in the road like happened in college with Dennis Rodman.
I used to not be sure whether Donovan was a good coach or just one that kept the success going. After Durant left that franchise just kept winning above what was expected. Did they still have some talent? Sure. Is Sam Presti a really good GM? Yep. I tend to think Donovan is a pretty good coach. The Bulls got themselves A good hire. They are gonna be better hiring a guy that actually knows what he is doing than some hot assistant name or whatever. That franchise needs some competence. And Donovan should bring it. There is some nice talent in Chicago it might be a fun team to be a fan of even if it doesn't become a championship level squad. Some of the pieces actually fit.
Again Rosas is gambling not just on Ryan Saunders but this coaching staff. It's sort of a Minnesota Twins model in that it's a highly collaborative effort. If it doesn't work that going to be a big setback. Only time will tell.
Nice post, Monster.
Although I tend to think that a great player will become great no matter where he plays, I agree with you that fit does matter for many players, including some very good ones. It probably depends on the player. Jordan was going to become the best player to ever play no matter where he landed. Same for Hakeem and many others. But where someone plays and who he plays for can matter a lot for many others. Rodman is a great example.
I think your analyses of Donovan and the Bulls are spot on. The Ryan Saunders gamble seems like a pretty bad one to me, but I like your comparison to the Twins approach. And as your said, time will tell.
I'm a big fan of Luka and I tend to think he would have been very good Regardless...but I think everyone can admit that him landing in Dallas compared to the Kings taking him...well if you wanted Luka to do well and have a great career that was a fantastic landing spot. I feel bad for Kings fans...I mean we know their pain well. Sigh.
monsterpile wrote:Jonathon Givoney knows the prospects that come into the league about as well as anyone can. It's his entire career. He is obviously biased towards the players but he says where guys land both in terms of organizations and the fit is a really big deal. I do wonder if we take the true superstars/greats journey for granted. What if something different had happened? Would they have been great or just really damn good? Ultimately we can never know unless there is some actual story of a fork in the road like happened in college with Dennis Rodman.
I used to not be sure whether Donovan was a good coach or just one that kept the success going. After Durant left that franchise just kept winning above what was expected. Did they still have some talent? Sure. Is Sam Presti a really good GM? Yep. I tend to think Donovan is a pretty good coach. The Bulls got themselves A good hire. They are gonna be better hiring a guy that actually knows what he is doing than some hot assistant name or whatever. That franchise needs some competence. And Donovan should bring it. There is some nice talent in Chicago it might be a fun team to be a fan of even if it doesn't become a championship level squad. Some of the pieces actually fit.
Again Rosas is gambling not just on Ryan Saunders but this coaching staff. It's sort of a Minnesota Twins model in that it's a highly collaborative effort. If it doesn't work that going to be a big setback. Only time will tell.
Nice post, Monster.
Although I tend to think that a great player will become great no matter where he plays, I agree with you that fit does matter for many players, including some very good ones. It probably depends on the player. Jordan was going to become the best player to ever play no matter where he landed. Same for Hakeem and many others. But where someone plays and who he plays for can matter a lot for many others. Rodman is a great example.
I think your analyses of Donovan and the Bulls are spot on. The Ryan Saunders gamble seems like a pretty bad one to me, but I like your comparison to the Twins approach. And as your said, time will tell.
I'm a big fan of Luka and I tend to think he would have been very good Regardless...but I think everyone can admit that him landing in Dallas compared to the Kings taking him...well if you wanted Luka to do well and have a great career that was a fantastic landing spot. I feel bad for Kings fans...I mean we know their pain well. Sigh.
Lol. Yes, as Wolves fans we can certainly feel the pain of Kings fans. :)
Interesting discussion. I tend to think superstars would be superstars regardless of where they came/play, but to the extent of their stardom can be felt depends on the team and system they are in. The first example that comes to mind to me is Jimmy Butler. He came in with the Bulls and Thib probably helped him build some of his defensive principles that define his game, but his offense went from nothing to very well rounded and effective as he grew in the Bulls system. He looked like a stud for the Wolves too and brought the Wolves back to their 1st playoff appearance in over a decade, but a quick 1st round exit. He was considered a star and one of the top 2 way players in the league, but now in Miami he is in the Finals with the right set of supporting cast around him and is opening more eyes than before. He would have made it anywhere with his work ethic and mentality.
Look at the Warriors. Under Marc Jackson they broke out, and under Kerr they continued that upward trend and became a mini-dynasty.
I think a better question would be...how important is the right team to a fringe all-star type player. Does the Bucks system and playing with Greek Freak help Middleton become the player that he is? How about a guy like Iggy with the Warriors? I remember back on the ESPN boards we were split on whether the Wolves should trade for him (76ers were on a fire sale) and many didn't want him because he couldn't shoot the 3. Warriors ended up with him and he played a key role in their 1st Finals win (He was the MVP I believe) despite not being in his prime.
Donovan...eh, did nothing for the Thunder and I wasn't impressed with him there. Feels like a guy who is a better college coach than NBA.
