lipoli390 wrote:Lillard is great. CJ is also terrific. A couple of really nice draft picks.
Billy Donovan will be the next NBA coach to get fired. I suspect he'll be terminated within the next 2 weeks.
If so I'll be interested to see what coach gets tasked with "fixing" the problems with that team.
I didn't watch the series but I'd guess that one thing to consider is Kanter playing against a team with Stephen Adams was a good matchup for Portland. Adams is a super good hustle big that's very good defensively as well. Kanter is a big strong guy that goes after rebounds and can get some buckets in the paint. Maybe OKC didn't expose him defensively enough or maybe Portland masks it well. It was a heck of a vet min signing. We will see how it plays out in the next series.
Also it seems like when Harkless and Aminu are healthy and playing reasonably well the. Lakers have been really good te last couple years. They are healthy and going back through the box scores from the series it looks like at least one of those guys contributed each game. It's not just about star players although you have to have them AND they have to play well. Dame played well in this series and from what I understand Westbrook and PG didn't.
I watched every second of that game yesterday. Did not disappoint.
1. Remember that memorable playoff moment when Kanter was on the Thunder... and Donovan was caught on film saying "Can't play Kanter" because he was so bad defensively. Kanter got some payback. You're right... OKC didn't have the players/system to expose him defensively.
2. Not really sure if Donovan is the problem there though.
3. Westbrook chucked too much. He will be ripped A LOT for it. George continued his own playoff failures with 3 missed free throws and a TO in the final 2 minutes. Fortunately for him, everybody will be ripping Westbrook too much to notice.
4. Damian Lillard is having his moment. He's been a Steph Curry v2.0 already for years. He's exceptional. He was insanely good yesterday.
5. That final shot was a bad shot as Paul George said. It made the old Gilbert Arenas last-second heaves look tame. Everybody will say "who cares it went in" and they'll be right. But regardless... you give that shot to anybody every single time and you're happy about it. Incredibly low percentage heave.
6. Playoff basketball can be fun. Who knew!
Good stuff Abe.
I bet Kanter is pretty happy he was able to move on from the Knicks who had both Kanter and Deandre Jordon average double doubles in well under 30mpg. I guess Whiteside doing that wasn't as special (relatively speaking) as as thought.
I wonder if some people forget that Andre Roberson played zero minutes for the Thunder this season. Even with him being limited offensively because he can't shoot that's a big deal. OKC has a bunch of younger wings that weren't up to the task this year even if they have promise. After the starters including Ferguson no wing played even 700 minutes for OKC. Ferguson is probably solid but still I doubt the plan was him being their 2nd most used and important wing this season. He turns 21 in May.
Roberson doesn't fix the Westbrook problem which is he's not efficient enough to carry an offense with PG and the rest of the floor having non-shooting defenders like Roberson. Roberson isn't much use to them anymore because they got PG who's just better in every way. They need shooters desperately and even that probably isn't enough. Westbrook is just volume everything and when you frequently shoot around 30-sub 40% with very high volume there just isn't a path to success for you. Hindsight just bites them in the ass trading Harden over Russ. That likely keeps Durant around with Harden and they have 2 of the 5 best players in the league and now they are just left with Russ who's falling out of the top 15 at this point in this new NBA where your ball handlers need to be able to shoot.
The rub is that by us deciding which player to trade was smartest... we're giving OKC a pass. They didn't have to trade either one of them.
The team was coasting on the goodwill of a good team in a new basketball city and they didn't HAVE to go over the luxury tax to field a competitive team and keep the fans happy.
lipoli390 wrote:Lillard is great. CJ is also terrific. A couple of really nice draft picks.
Billy Donovan will be the next NBA coach to get fired. I suspect he'll be terminated within the next 2 weeks.
If so I'll be interested to see what coach gets tasked with "fixing" the problems with that team.
I didn't watch the series but I'd guess that one thing to consider is Kanter playing against a team with Stephen Adams was a good matchup for Portland. Adams is a super good hustle big that's very good defensively as well. Kanter is a big strong guy that goes after rebounds and can get some buckets in the paint. Maybe OKC didn't expose him defensively enough or maybe Portland masks it well. It was a heck of a vet min signing. We will see how it plays out in the next series.
Also it seems like when Harkless and Aminu are healthy and playing reasonably well the. Lakers have been really good te last couple years. They are healthy and going back through the box scores from the series it looks like at least one of those guys contributed each game. It's not just about star players although you have to have them AND they have to play well. Dame played well in this series and from what I understand Westbrook and PG didn't.
I watched every second of that game yesterday. Did not disappoint.
1. Remember that memorable playoff moment when Kanter was on the Thunder... and Donovan was caught on film saying "Can't play Kanter" because he was so bad defensively. Kanter got some payback. You're right... OKC didn't have the players/system to expose him defensively.
2. Not really sure if Donovan is the problem there though.
3. Westbrook chucked too much. He will be ripped A LOT for it. George continued his own playoff failures with 3 missed free throws and a TO in the final 2 minutes. Fortunately for him, everybody will be ripping Westbrook too much to notice.
4. Damian Lillard is having his moment. He's been a Steph Curry v2.0 already for years. He's exceptional. He was insanely good yesterday.
5. That final shot was a bad shot as Paul George said. It made the old Gilbert Arenas last-second heaves look tame. Everybody will say "who cares it went in" and they'll be right. But regardless... you give that shot to anybody every single time and you're happy about it. Incredibly low percentage heave.
6. Playoff basketball can be fun. Who knew!
Good stuff Abe.
I bet Kanter is pretty happy he was able to move on from the Knicks who had both Kanter and Deandre Jordon average double doubles in well under 30mpg. I guess Whiteside doing that wasn't as special (relatively speaking) as as thought.
I wonder if some people forget that Andre Roberson played zero minutes for the Thunder this season. Even with him being limited offensively because he can't shoot that's a big deal. OKC has a bunch of younger wings that weren't up to the task this year even if they have promise. After the starters including Ferguson no wing played even 700 minutes for OKC. Ferguson is probably solid but still I doubt the plan was him being their 2nd most used and important wing this season. He turns 21 in May.
Roberson doesn't fix the Westbrook problem which is he's not efficient enough to carry an offense with PG and the rest of the floor having non-shooting defenders like Roberson. Roberson isn't much use to them anymore because they got PG who's just better in every way. They need shooters desperately and even that probably isn't enough. Westbrook is just volume everything and when you frequently shoot around 30-sub 40% with very high volume there just isn't a path to success for you. Hindsight just bites them in the ass trading Harden over Russ. That likely keeps Durant around with Harden and they have 2 of the 5 best players in the league and now they are just left with Russ who's falling out of the top 15 at this point in this new NBA where your ball handlers need to be able to shoot.
The rub is that by us deciding which player to trade was smartest... we're giving OKC a pass. They didn't have to trade either one of them.
The team was coasting on the goodwill of a good team in a new basketball city and they didn't HAVE to go over the luxury tax to field a competitive team and keep the fans happy.
Abe is right they didn't have to trade anyone.
Sure Roberson doesn't fix the Westbrook problem and I absolutely agree they need more shooters. Still a guy in Roberson combined with PG defensively on the wing with guys like Adams and Grant playing as bigs? Damn that's a heck of defensive squad. Then you have a guy like Ferguson off the bench instead of starting. I think OKC might be in a spot somewhat similar to times after the Hardon trade. If Adams has been good right away the Harden trade looks better. Some of their young players like Ferguson might not be ready in time. It's a pretty young roster after the top guys and Patterson. I do think there may be a bit of a crossroads though no doubt and Roberson's health has to be in question at this point as well.
Would a Westbrook for Wiggins deal make sense? If OKC is looking at a multi year rebuild they may not be so down on having a younger player at a high number during that time. They are set to pay repeater luxury tax on a team that has been a first round out for two years. Although Westbrook is a problematic player I'd like him next to KAT. I think the anti-Westbrook rhetoric is at an all time high even to the point where he could be had for less than what he is worth. He has been a problem, but overall is still a plus player with the right surroundings. Either way the playoffs are always a time to make giant overreactions about players. Remember when Biyambo got that huge deal a few years ago because of some solid playoff play? It seems to happen every year. The overreactions about Westbrook are going to be the story of the first round.
thedoper wrote:Would a Westbrook for Wiggins deal make sense? If OKC is looking at a multi year rebuild they may not be so down on having a younger player at a high number during that time. They are set to pay repeater luxury tax on a team that has been a first round out for two years. Although Westbrook is a problematic player I'd like him next to KAT. I think the anti-Westbrook rhetoric is at an all time high even to the point where he could be had for less than what he is worth. He has been a problem, but overall is still a plus player with the right surroundings. Either way the playoffs are always a time to make giant overreactions about players. Remember when Biyambo got that huge deal a few years ago because of some solid playoff play? It seems to happen every year. The overreactions about Westbrook are going to be the story of the first round.
He's 4-14 in his last 18 playoff games since going up 3-1 on the Warriors. It's not an overreaction. It's people finally taking off the rose colored glasses that were laser focused on the regular season stats and the triple doubles.
thedoper wrote:Would a Westbrook for Wiggins deal make sense? If OKC is looking at a multi year rebuild they may not be so down on having a younger player at a high number during that time. They are set to pay repeater luxury tax on a team that has been a first round out for two years. Although Westbrook is a problematic player I'd like him next to KAT. I think the anti-Westbrook rhetoric is at an all time high even to the point where he could be had for less than what he is worth. He has been a problem, but overall is still a plus player with the right surroundings. Either way the playoffs are always a time to make giant overreactions about players. Remember when Biyambo got that huge deal a few years ago because of some solid playoff play? It seems to happen every year. The overreactions about Westbrook are going to be the story of the first round.
No. OKC would not do that deal. OKC would not think twice about that deal... except to bring it up at cocktail parties to get a good laugh at the Wolves expense.
Consider...
Westbrook is being mocked and ridiculed literally everywhere right now for how terrible he was in the playoffs. He was still a positive player by most metrics (PER + VORP + BPM, et al).
In 5 years... Wiggins has not been a positive player statistically on a basketball court... in any statistical category.
thedoper wrote:Would a Westbrook for Wiggins deal make sense? If OKC is looking at a multi year rebuild they may not be so down on having a younger player at a high number during that time. They are set to pay repeater luxury tax on a team that has been a first round out for two years. Although Westbrook is a problematic player I'd like him next to KAT. I think the anti-Westbrook rhetoric is at an all time high even to the point where he could be had for less than what he is worth. He has been a problem, but overall is still a plus player with the right surroundings. Either way the playoffs are always a time to make giant overreactions about players. Remember when Biyambo got that huge deal a few years ago because of some solid playoff play? It seems to happen every year. The overreactions about Westbrook are going to be the story of the first round.
He's 4-14 in his last 18 playoff games since going up 3-1 on the Warriors. It's not an overreaction. It's people finally taking off the rose colored glasses that were laser focused on the regular season stats and the triple doubles.
Sure but a Wiggins for Westbrook deal has zero chance of happening. If OKC really wanted to unload Russ. (I really doubt it) they could do a heck of a lot better than that.
thedoper wrote:Would a Westbrook for Wiggins deal make sense? If OKC is looking at a multi year rebuild they may not be so down on having a younger player at a high number during that time. They are set to pay repeater luxury tax on a team that has been a first round out for two years. Although Westbrook is a problematic player I'd like him next to KAT. I think the anti-Westbrook rhetoric is at an all time high even to the point where he could be had for less than what he is worth. He has been a problem, but overall is still a plus player with the right surroundings. Either way the playoffs are always a time to make giant overreactions about players. Remember when Biyambo got that huge deal a few years ago because of some solid playoff play? It seems to happen every year. The overreactions about Westbrook are going to be the story of the first round.
No. OKC would not do that deal. OKC would not think twice about that deal... except to bring it up at cocktail parties to get a good laugh at the Wolves expense.
Consider...
Westbrook is being mocked and ridiculed literally everywhere right now for how terrible he was in the playoffs. He was still a positive player by most metrics (PER + VORP + BPM, et al).
In 5 years... Wiggins has not been a positive player statistically on a basketball court... in any statistical category.
Because yes... for a team that has even competed for a playoff berth only once in 14 years... the regular season does matter.
I agree that they wouldn't do that deal right now. In time the pressure to dump Westbrook is going to grow. I don't think we should deal Wiggins now anyway since his value is at an all time low.
thedoper wrote:Would a Westbrook for Wiggins deal make sense? If OKC is looking at a multi year rebuild they may not be so down on having a younger player at a high number during that time. They are set to pay repeater luxury tax on a team that has been a first round out for two years. Although Westbrook is a problematic player I'd like him next to KAT. I think the anti-Westbrook rhetoric is at an all time high even to the point where he could be had for less than what he is worth. He has been a problem, but overall is still a plus player with the right surroundings. Either way the playoffs are always a time to make giant overreactions about players. Remember when Biyambo got that huge deal a few years ago because of some solid playoff play? It seems to happen every year. The overreactions about Westbrook are going to be the story of the first round.
No. OKC would not do that deal. OKC would not think twice about that deal... except to bring it up at cocktail parties to get a good laugh at the Wolves expense.
Consider...
Westbrook is being mocked and ridiculed literally everywhere right now for how terrible he was in the playoffs. He was still a positive player by most metrics (PER + VORP + BPM, et al).
In 5 years... Wiggins has not been a positive player statistically on a basketball court... in any statistical category.
Because yes... for a team that has even competed for a playoff berth only once in 14 years... the regular season does matter.
I agree that they wouldn't do that deal right now. In time the pressure to dump Westbrook is going to grow. I don't think we should deal Wiggins now anyway since his value is at an all time low.
He's on the wrong side of 30... so you're probably right.
But he has also developed some goodwill in that community. People still go to Thunder games to see (1) Westbrook play (2) the Thunder win.
How much worse will Westbrook have to get until he starts negatively impacting (2) more than Wiggins? In the meantime, you'd be telling the loyal fanbase that Westbrook is being dumped for some random, very meh and uninspiring random guy. I'm sure the fanbase would be gobbling up even more season tickets after that move.
thedoper wrote:Would a Westbrook for Wiggins deal make sense? If OKC is looking at a multi year rebuild they may not be so down on having a younger player at a high number during that time. They are set to pay repeater luxury tax on a team that has been a first round out for two years. Although Westbrook is a problematic player I'd like him next to KAT. I think the anti-Westbrook rhetoric is at an all time high even to the point where he could be had for less than what he is worth. He has been a problem, but overall is still a plus player with the right surroundings. Either way the playoffs are always a time to make giant overreactions about players. Remember when Biyambo got that huge deal a few years ago because of some solid playoff play? It seems to happen every year. The overreactions about Westbrook are going to be the story of the first round.
No. OKC would not do that deal. OKC would not think twice about that deal... except to bring it up at cocktail parties to get a good laugh at the Wolves expense.
Consider...
Westbrook is being mocked and ridiculed literally everywhere right now for how terrible he was in the playoffs. He was still a positive player by most metrics (PER + VORP + BPM, et al).
In 5 years... Wiggins has not been a positive player statistically on a basketball court... in any statistical category.
Because yes... for a team that has even competed for a playoff berth only once in 14 years... the regular season does matter.
I agree that they wouldn't do that deal right now. In time the pressure to dump Westbrook is going to grow. I don't think we should deal Wiggins now anyway since his value is at an all time low.
He's on the wrong side of 30... so you're probably right.
But he has also developed some goodwill in that community. People still go to Thunder games to see (1) Westbrook play (2) the Thunder win.
How much worse will Westbrook have to get until he starts negatively impacting (2) more than Wiggins? In the meantime, you'd be telling the loyal fanbase that Westbrook is being dumped for some random, very meh and uninspiring random guy. I'm sure the fanbase would be gobbling up even more season tickets after that move.
I think the luxury tax is going to be what breaks the situation there. Fan confidence is going to start to wane, and that will affect seats. Eventually OKC is going to have to rebuild. I could see it happening sooner than later with the insane salary obligations while performing under expectations. I think your assessment of Westbrook is actually closer to reality of his real talent and value to the franchise. But the pitchforks are out, and the basketball nerds have rallied around hating Westbrook for a while, it is only a matter of time that the same conclusion starts happening in their fan base. My point in bringing up Wiggins is that the only plus trade we can be looking at is where a team will have a definite 3 year talent vacuum and are willing to take a flier on his athleticism. That means a team of recent success staring at a full rebuild. If that isn't OKC now it is definitely them soon or post Kawahi Toronto as I have repeatedly said.
thedoper wrote:Would a Westbrook for Wiggins deal make sense? If OKC is looking at a multi year rebuild they may not be so down on having a younger player at a high number during that time. They are set to pay repeater luxury tax on a team that has been a first round out for two years. Although Westbrook is a problematic player I'd like him next to KAT. I think the anti-Westbrook rhetoric is at an all time high even to the point where he could be had for less than what he is worth. He has been a problem, but overall is still a plus player with the right surroundings. Either way the playoffs are always a time to make giant overreactions about players. Remember when Biyambo got that huge deal a few years ago because of some solid playoff play? It seems to happen every year. The overreactions about Westbrook are going to be the story of the first round.
No. OKC would not do that deal. OKC would not think twice about that deal... except to bring it up at cocktail parties to get a good laugh at the Wolves expense.
Consider...
Westbrook is being mocked and ridiculed literally everywhere right now for how terrible he was in the playoffs. He was still a positive player by most metrics (PER + VORP + BPM, et al).
In 5 years... Wiggins has not been a positive player statistically on a basketball court... in any statistical category.
Because yes... for a team that has even competed for a playoff berth only once in 14 years... the regular season does matter.
I agree that they wouldn't do that deal right now. In time the pressure to dump Westbrook is going to grow. I don't think we should deal Wiggins now anyway since his value is at an all time low.
He's on the wrong side of 30... so you're probably right.
But he has also developed some goodwill in that community. People still go to Thunder games to see (1) Westbrook play (2) the Thunder win.
How much worse will Westbrook have to get until he starts negatively impacting (2) more than Wiggins? In the meantime, you'd be telling the loyal fanbase that Westbrook is being dumped for some random, very meh and uninspiring random guy. I'm sure the fanbase would be gobbling up even more season tickets after that move.
I think the luxury tax is going to be what breaks the situation there. Fan confidence is going to start to wane, and that will affect seats. Eventually OKC is going to have to rebuild. I could see it happening sooner than later with the insane salary obligations while performing under expectations. I think your assessment of Westbrook is actually closer to reality of his real talent and value to the franchise. But the pitchforks are out, and the basketball nerds have rallied around hating Westbrook for a while, it is only a matter of time that the same conclusion starts happening in their fan base. My point in bringing up Wiggins is that the only plus trade we can be looking at is where a team will have a definite 3 year talent vacuum and are willing to take a flier on his athleticism. That means a team of recent success staring at a full rebuild. If that isn't OKC now it is definitely them soon or post Kawahi Toronto as I have repeatedly said.
The basketball nerds are beginning to annoy me.
Granted, they usually have more merit to their takes than the old guys, e.g., Barkley and his ilk. But it's a very granular take that lacks so much context.
And it's in that context that basketball lives and breathes. Baseball is sort of ruined for me in recent years. Personally, I think there are too many contextual things in basketball to prevent that from happening... but it's not stopping the people I have to listen to discuss basketball still try to make it happen.
There can be a middle ground. There should be. There needs to be.
[Note: Full rebuild for Toronto? I dunno about that. The emergence of Siakam is changing that franchise's outlook immensely... with or without Leonard. The guy just went for 23 / 8 / 3 / 53% while playing a team-high in minutes... in the playoffs. He KEEPS getting better. And better. And better. Basically, he's the anti-Andrew Wiggins.]
