Camden0916 wrote:What franchise in their right mind was going to give Andrew Wiggins the keys to take over after what he had shown in three full NBA seasons? Wiggins himself doesn't even want to take over. The guy is a floater and it's undeniable at this point. Just hope he can be a useful player moving forward because the "star potential" label is fading quickly.
The Pacers sure were dumb handing the keys to Oladipo when he showed almost 0 all-star potential between Orlando and OKC.
Perhaps not All-NBA potential, but Victor Oladipo was actually improving each year in Orlando. His VORP increased from 0.8 to 1.3 and then 2.3 -- his PER, TS%, and WS/48 all improved year to year as well -- before getting traded for Serge Ibaka. He wasn't a good fit next to Russell Westbrook in Oklahoma City, but there was a pattern of improvement before that season. So, it's not all that comparable to Wiggins, in my opinion. He's either the same player or worse than the 19-year old rookie version of himself and has yet to be a positive player in the NBA.
I don't disagree with you but he is still the biggest factor on where the wolves go in these upcoming years. If he stays the same he is like Jeff Green and Rudy Gay (Wiggins might be more talented) being a massive tease but could never put it together and we never become a legit title team. If he taps into that talent he has now we have something going. He proved he could be a 3rd option on a playoff team this year and could help carry a team to a 500 record with Jimmy out. But we need a lot more than that. Plain an simple, he takes the next step we can compete for titles in the future, if he stays the same we are a middling playoff team with no real hope.
Camden0916 wrote:What franchise in their right mind was going to give Andrew Wiggins the keys to take over after what he had shown in three full NBA seasons? Wiggins himself doesn't even want to take over. The guy is a floater and it's undeniable at this point. Just hope he can be a useful player moving forward because the "star potential" label is fading quickly.
The Pacers sure were dumb handing the keys to Oladipo when he showed almost 0 all-star potential between Orlando and OKC.
Perhaps not All-NBA potential, but Victor Oladipo was actually improving each year in Orlando. His VORP increased from 0.8 to 1.3 and then 2.3 -- his PER, TS%, and WS/48 all improved year to year as well -- before getting traded for Serge Ibaka. He wasn't a good fit next to Russell Westbrook in Oklahoma City, but there was a pattern of improvement before that season. So, it's not all that comparable to Wiggins, in my opinion. He's either the same player or worse than the 19-year old rookie version of himself and has yet to be a positive player in the NBA.
I don't disagree with you but he is still the biggest factor on where the wolves go in these upcoming years. If he stays the same he is like Jeff Green and Rudy Gay (Wiggins might be more talented) being a massive tease but could never put it together and we never become a legit title team. If he taps into that talent he has now we have something going. He proved he could be a 3rd option on a playoff team this year and could help carry a team to a 500 record with Jimmy out. But we need a lot more than that. Plain an simple, he takes the next step we can compete for titles in the future, if he stays the same we are a middling playoff team with no real hope.
I think a lot of people missed the improvements as a shooter that Dipo made while in OKC. He got better each year as a pro and then exploded last season with the Pacers and it was fun to see. A couple things Wiggins has going for him that Dipo doesnt/didn't is Length and until this year he was a guy that got to the FT line at a very high rate and he wasn't doing cheap stuff to get to the line either. Dipo's advantage's right now are his ability to be a primary ball handler and as a shooter from all over the floor and off the dribble. Again the parallel for Wiggins improving is probably more Derozen than Dipo but I think regardless there is a chance Wiggins breaks out. Just hitting 3's at a pretty high volume (which the attempts and distance beyond the line has trended the right direction) and at even 36% would be a pretty big deal both for him as a player and for the team. Oh and if the defensive improvement we saw from him last year is movement in the right direction for him then...yeah I'll take it. Ultimately I think we are gonna find out what we have in Wiggins this season in a Wolves uniform. I am personally looking forward to it.
I've dogged Rudy Gay's game for years. He didn't seem to move the needle enough to help teams win and was overpaid BUT I don't think he was worthless either AND teams seemed to find ways to move on from the guy, IF the downside of Wiggins is Gay there is something it work with there. That's still a starting level wing player in a league where those guys are pretty valuable. A couple years from now to get the good ones (sometimes that means even fringe starters) you you have to pay $15 million or whatever the going rate ends up being with the rising cap and some of the big contracts from a couple years ago expiring which will help open up some spending. I'm far from excited at the thought that Wiggins becomes the next Rudy Gay, but we aren't talking about Derrick Williams hoping to be in the league. Also speaking of Rudy Gay he opted out of his contract with the Spurs.
The "downside", or floor -- if you will -- of Andrew Wiggins isn't Rudy Gay, rather, the upside right now is Rudy Gay. Wiggins hasn't even come close to the level of player Gay was in Memphis so how can we expect that to be his floor?
Camden wrote:The "downside", or floor -- if you will -- of Andrew Wiggins isn't Rudy Gay, rather, the upside right now is Rudy Gay. Wiggins hasn't even come close to the level of player Gay was in Memphis so how can we expect that to be his floor?
I'm gonna agree to disagree. I think their relative value to a team is fairly comparable at simialr stages of their careers. I'm enjoying some glass half full on Wiggins. I get why people are not being optimistic and its a perfectly fair and reasonable place to be. This season is not THE season we find out what Wiggins is but it i a pretty big one for this franchise with him.
Camden0916 wrote:The "downside", or floor -- if you will -- of Andrew Wiggins isn't Rudy Gay, rather, the upside right now is Rudy Gay. Wiggins hasn't even come close to the level of player Gay was in Memphis so how can we expect that to be his floor?
Uh...Wiggins prior to being bumped to #3 this year literally was Rudy Gay.
Gonna have to agree with Khansy on this one. Gay and Wiggins were comparable players in their 3rd year....comparably mediocre players that is. The other damning thing about this is that Memphis got on their roll of 50 win seasons the year they traded Gay for Prince. They actually got BETTER by replacing Gay with a very competent, low usage role player.
Q12543 wrote:Gonna have to agree with Khansy on this one. Gay and Wiggins were comparable players in their 3rd year....comparably mediocre players that is. The other damning thing about this is that Memphis got on their roll of 50 win seasons the year they traded Gay for Prince. They actually got BETTER by replacing Gay with a very competent, low usage role player.
Funny how we pay guys like Dieng, while the much cheaper Gibson is who's helping us win...
And we pay Wiggins, and his career trajectory after year 3 years is similar to that of a Rudy Gay (coincidentally, seems like a very good comparison, they both loved the deep 2's as well)... Those two alone are crushing our cap with high usage, low efficiency results offensively while playing minimal defense.
Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.
Camden wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.
The fact we're even arguing about whether Wiggins is as good as Gay or not is damning enough. Jeff Green is my favorite bottom of the barrel comp to Andrew. So he's somewhere in the Jeff Green-Rudy Gay spectrum. All for a cool $150M!!!! Unbelievable.
Camden0916 wrote:Hard for me to put Wiggins on Gay's level in Memphis when he has yet to come anywhere near him in VORP, WS, WS/48, or BPM. When Wiggins posts a season where he's a positive on the court, then I'll concede he's on Gay's level. To this point, his volume numbers are even emptier than Gay's. The sad thing is that Gay wasn't an integral part of those Grizzlies teams either. And before I hear someone say, "But what about the players around Gay!" Wiggins played with two All-NBA players and a former All-Star point guard who has yet to miss the playoffs. That's not including the grizzled veteran at power forward.
23.6/4.2/2.3/1.0 45/36/76 4.2 WS 29 usage
18.9/5.5/1.7/1.2 45/35/77 3.3 WS 25.6 usage
Wiggins was player 1 in this scenario aka higher WS and WS/48 than Gay before his teammates knocked him down the totem pole in year 4. The Vorp and BPM were not huge differences as you say as well. There just isn't this large gap you claim. Gay was a better defender while Wiggins was the better offensive player and the gaps between both sides of the ball are pretty similar.
