Duke13 wrote:I just saw a report Memphis is looking to unload the #4 pick along with Parson. Not 100% sure but I'm guessing he has two year left on his deal. I'm not gonna say there is no way Wig reaches his potential, but I'd say it's unlikely at this point. I'd be willing to do this deal I think, could we possibly try and include Gorgi in the deal?
Maybe I'm struggling not having a high lottery pick after so many year of having one. And I know I'm plenty ready to move on from Wig
So I heard a podcast today with Bill Simmons and Chris Vernon, the Memphis play-by-play guy.
They mentioned Harrison Barnes (AND the #5 pick) for the #4 and Parsons' contract.
I know most people realize Memphis wouldn't do the OP deal. But this sorta reveals just how unlikely it is.
Honestly, I think the Barnes + No. 5 pick is even more unreasonable than the Wiggins idea.
Are you saying...
Wiggins > Barnes + #5?
All I know is the Mavs aren't dealing Barnes and taking on Chandler to move up ONE draft spot. So yes i can see it being more unrealistic than the Wiggins deal because there is ZERO chance the Mavs do that deal.
lipoli390 wrote:If you believe that the KAT/Butler duo under Thibodeau will eventually contend for the Western Conference championship, then you don't trade Butler this summer. I'm with Cool in concluding that a KAT/Butler duo will not challenge Golden State or even Houston next season. My evidence? The fact that the Wolves needed a home win the last game of the season just to make the playoffs in a season when everyone but Butler was largely healthy and Gibson had a career year. And if we end up in the bottom 4 and a first round playoff exit next season with KAT and Butler as I think we will, then I don't see Butler hanging around as a free agent. And even if he does stay, his career history tells us he can't be counted on to play more than 65-67 games. Moreover, even when healthy, he's simply not at the same level as a James Harden, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant or LeBron James. Recall also that Butler played in all but one of our most unacceptable losses last season -- including the home loss to Atlanta.
If we want the Wolves to have the best chance of making the playoffs next season, then we should keep Butler. That's the likely floor for a Butler/KAT led Wolves team, but the ceiling isn't much higher than the floor. To contend for a championship in the long run, the Wolves need to add another elite player young enough to peak and remain at his peak concurrently with KAT's peak years at the same time the Warriors begin to decline through age or attrition. The only way the Wolves can possibly do that is to trade Butler this summer.
I think Memphis would swap their #4 pick, Parsons and their #32 pick for Butler. I think the #4 pick could land us an elite talent. The #20 and 32 picks would give us two chances to land at least one very solid young player. Putting those three picks together with KAT, Wiggins and Tyus Jones probably puts us back in the lottery, but it gives us a young foundation of players who can grow together and possibly develop into a title contender in the post-Warriors era. That's much better in my view than being a cap-strapped 6th, 7th or 8th seed worried about whether Butler will bolt next summer as a FA or push us far above the luxury tax with no chance of adding the personnel we'd need to become a contender.
Why can't we be a playoff team with Jimmy and then re-tool around KAT and Wiggins after Jimmy's next deal is done to go for the title? Why are the only options trade Jimmy and start rebuilding again for a title run in a 5 years or keep Jimmy and never win a title and be a playoff bottom feeder? Trading Jimmy puts us back in the lottery. That's a step back in hopes that you can eventually step forward. Why can't we stand our ground, get some depth, be the 4/5 seed that we would have been with some depth this year and then go for the title down the line when it makes sense? You don't have to take steps back to move forward.
Duke13 wrote:I just saw a report Memphis is looking to unload the #4 pick along with Parson. Not 100% sure but I'm guessing he has two year left on his deal. I'm not gonna say there is no way Wig reaches his potential, but I'd say it's unlikely at this point. I'd be willing to do this deal I think, could we possibly try and include Gorgi in the deal?
Maybe I'm struggling not having a high lottery pick after so many year of having one. And I know I'm plenty ready to move on from Wig
So I heard a podcast today with Bill Simmons and Chris Vernon, the Memphis play-by-play guy.
They mentioned Harrison Barnes (AND the #5 pick) for the #4 and Parsons' contract.
I know most people realize Memphis wouldn't do the OP deal. But this sorta reveals just how unlikely it is.
Honestly, I think the Barnes + No. 5 pick is even more unreasonable than the Wiggins idea.
Are you saying...
Wiggins > Barnes + #5?
All I know is the Mavs aren't dealing Barnes and taking on Chandler to move up ONE draft spot. So yes i can see it being more unrealistic than the Wiggins deal because there is ZERO chance the Mavs do that deal.
Ok. Gotcha. Sure. I can see that.
I was looking at it from the other side of how unrealistic the #4 for Wiggins was.
lipoli390 wrote:If you believe that the KAT/Butler duo under Thibodeau will eventually contend for the Western Conference championship, then you don't trade Butler this summer. I'm with Cool in concluding that a KAT/Butler duo will not challenge Golden State or even Houston next season. My evidence? The fact that the Wolves needed a home win the last game of the season just to make the playoffs in a season when everyone but Butler was largely healthy and Gibson had a career year. And if we end up in the bottom 4 and a first round playoff exit next season with KAT and Butler as I think we will, then I don't see Butler hanging around as a free agent. And even if he does stay, his career history tells us he can't be counted on to play more than 65-67 games. Moreover, even when healthy, he's simply not at the same level as a James Harden, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant or LeBron James. Recall also that Butler played in all but one of our most unacceptable losses last season -- including the home loss to Atlanta.
If we want the Wolves to have the best chance of making the playoffs next season, then we should keep Butler. That's the likely floor for a Butler/KAT led Wolves team, but the ceiling isn't much higher than the floor. To contend for a championship in the long run, the Wolves need to add another elite player young enough to peak and remain at his peak concurrently with KAT's peak years at the same time the Warriors begin to decline through age or attrition. The only way the Wolves can possibly do that is to trade Butler this summer.
I think Memphis would swap their #4 pick, Parsons and their #32 pick for Butler. I think the #4 pick could land us an elite talent. The #20 and 32 picks would give us two chances to land at least one very solid young player. Putting those three picks together with KAT, Wiggins and Tyus Jones probably puts us back in the lottery, but it gives us a young foundation of players who can grow together and possibly develop into a title contender in the post-Warriors era. That's much better in my view than being a cap-strapped 6th, 7th or 8th seed worried about whether Butler will bolt next summer as a FA or push us far above the luxury tax with no chance of adding the personnel we'd need to become a contender.
Why can't we be a playoff team with Jimmy and then re-tool around KAT and Wiggins after Jimmy's next deal is done to go for the title? Why are the only options trade Jimmy and start rebuilding again for a title run in a 5 years or keep Jimmy and never win a title and be a playoff bottom feeder? Trading Jimmy puts us back in the lottery. That's a step back in hopes that you can eventually step forward. Why can't we stand our ground, get some depth, be the 4/5 seed that we would have been with some depth this year and then go for the title down the line when it makes sense? You don't have to take steps back to move forward.
Boy, you make it sound pretty easy. So we just re-tool and then decide to go for the title. I can't wait!
You are standing on two supposed franchise pillars in KAT and Wiggins that are pretty damn wobbly right now. KAT at least is a top 10 offensive talent. Wiggins isn't top 10 (or 20...or 30) at literally anything with a basketball in his hands unless it's dunking, but he doesn't even like to do that much anymore.
So we are going to "re-tool" around one all-star caliber player that struggles defensively and one fairly average wing? That's not re-tooling, that's rebuilding. You yourself suggest that these two can't even win 50% of our games unless Butler is on the floor.
lipoli390 wrote:If you believe that the KAT/Butler duo under Thibodeau will eventually contend for the Western Conference championship, then you don't trade Butler this summer. I'm with Cool in concluding that a KAT/Butler duo will not challenge Golden State or even Houston next season. My evidence? The fact that the Wolves needed a home win the last game of the season just to make the playoffs in a season when everyone but Butler was largely healthy and Gibson had a career year. And if we end up in the bottom 4 and a first round playoff exit next season with KAT and Butler as I think we will, then I don't see Butler hanging around as a free agent. And even if he does stay, his career history tells us he can't be counted on to play more than 65-67 games. Moreover, even when healthy, he's simply not at the same level as a James Harden, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant or LeBron James. Recall also that Butler played in all but one of our most unacceptable losses last season -- including the home loss to Atlanta.
If we want the Wolves to have the best chance of making the playoffs next season, then we should keep Butler. That's the likely floor for a Butler/KAT led Wolves team, but the ceiling isn't much higher than the floor. To contend for a championship in the long run, the Wolves need to add another elite player young enough to peak and remain at his peak concurrently with KAT's peak years at the same time the Warriors begin to decline through age or attrition. The only way the Wolves can possibly do that is to trade Butler this summer.
I think Memphis would swap their #4 pick, Parsons and their #32 pick for Butler. I think the #4 pick could land us an elite talent. The #20 and 32 picks would give us two chances to land at least one very solid young player. Putting those three picks together with KAT, Wiggins and Tyus Jones probably puts us back in the lottery, but it gives us a young foundation of players who can grow together and possibly develop into a title contender in the post-Warriors era. That's much better in my view than being a cap-strapped 6th, 7th or 8th seed worried about whether Butler will bolt next summer as a FA or push us far above the luxury tax with no chance of adding the personnel we'd need to become a contender.
Why can't we be a playoff team with Jimmy and then re-tool around KAT and Wiggins after Jimmy's next deal is done to go for the title? Why are the only options trade Jimmy and start rebuilding again for a title run in a 5 years or keep Jimmy and never win a title and be a playoff bottom feeder? Trading Jimmy puts us back in the lottery. That's a step back in hopes that you can eventually step forward. Why can't we stand our ground, get some depth, be the 4/5 seed that we would have been with some depth this year and then go for the title down the line when it makes sense? You don't have to take steps back to move forward.
Great post. Putting us back in the lottery at this point only moves KAT closer to wanting out. If people thought he was miserable last year imagine when he realizes that he's not good enough to lead a team into contention on his own. We trade Jimmy or Wig to improve our current assets, not so we can rebuild now. Rebuilding now when KAT is not at his prime is foolish. Let's keep giving him the opportunity to get in the playoffs and show growth.
lipoli390 wrote:If you believe that the KAT/Butler duo under Thibodeau will eventually contend for the Western Conference championship, then you don't trade Butler this summer. I'm with Cool in concluding that a KAT/Butler duo will not challenge Golden State or even Houston next season. My evidence? The fact that the Wolves needed a home win the last game of the season just to make the playoffs in a season when everyone but Butler was largely healthy and Gibson had a career year. And if we end up in the bottom 4 and a first round playoff exit next season with KAT and Butler as I think we will, then I don't see Butler hanging around as a free agent. And even if he does stay, his career history tells us he can't be counted on to play more than 65-67 games. Moreover, even when healthy, he's simply not at the same level as a James Harden, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant or LeBron James. Recall also that Butler played in all but one of our most unacceptable losses last season -- including the home loss to Atlanta.
If we want the Wolves to have the best chance of making the playoffs next season, then we should keep Butler. That's the likely floor for a Butler/KAT led Wolves team, but the ceiling isn't much higher than the floor. To contend for a championship in the long run, the Wolves need to add another elite player young enough to peak and remain at his peak concurrently with KAT's peak years at the same time the Warriors begin to decline through age or attrition. The only way the Wolves can possibly do that is to trade Butler this summer.
I think Memphis would swap their #4 pick, Parsons and their #32 pick for Butler. I think the #4 pick could land us an elite talent. The #20 and 32 picks would give us two chances to land at least one very solid young player. Putting those three picks together with KAT, Wiggins and Tyus Jones probably puts us back in the lottery, but it gives us a young foundation of players who can grow together and possibly develop into a title contender in the post-Warriors era. That's much better in my view than being a cap-strapped 6th, 7th or 8th seed worried about whether Butler will bolt next summer as a FA or push us far above the luxury tax with no chance of adding the personnel we'd need to become a contender.
Why can't we be a playoff team with Jimmy and then re-tool around KAT and Wiggins after Jimmy's next deal is done to go for the title? Why are the only options trade Jimmy and start rebuilding again for a title run in a 5 years or keep Jimmy and never win a title and be a playoff bottom feeder? Trading Jimmy puts us back in the lottery. That's a step back in hopes that you can eventually step forward. Why can't we stand our ground, get some depth, be the 4/5 seed that we would have been with some depth this year and then go for the title down the line when it makes sense? You don't have to take steps back to move forward.
Boy, you make it sound pretty easy. So we just re-tool and then decide to go for the title. I can't wait!
You are standing on two supposed franchise pillars in KAT and Wiggins that are pretty damn wobbly right now. KAT at least is a top 10 offensive talent. Wiggins isn't top 10 (or 20...or 30) at literally anything with a basketball in his hands unless it's dunking, but he doesn't even like to do that much anymore.
So we are going to "re-tool" around one all-star caliber player that struggles defensively and one fairly average wing? That's not re-tooling, that's rebuilding. You yourself suggest that these two can't even win 50% of our games unless Butler is on the floor.
Well at that time we'd be re-tooling around two 20 PPG scorers in their prime. I think it's foolish to believe they are who they are at 22 years. Look at the best players in the league. Outside of Giannis, Simmons and Embiid, none of them are as young as Wiggins and Towns. Young players don't run this league. People need to get over this perception that our 22 year olds need to be top 10-20 guys right now or they'll never get there. All the top young guys in the league have room to grow including our guys.
Well at that time we'd be re-tooling around two 20 PPG scorers in their prime. I think it's foolish to believe they are who they are at 22 years. Look at the best players in the league. Outside of Giannis, Simmons and Embiid, none of them are as young as Wiggins and Towns. Young players don't run this league. People need to get over this perception that our 22 year olds need to be top 10-20 guys right now or they'll never get there. All the top young guys in the league have room to grow including our guys.
Wiggins will be 24 before the next season ends.
And at some point, years of NBA experience trumps chronological age. After 4 years and 320+ games... Wiggins should be showing statistical signs of improving... not regressing.
Well at that time we'd be re-tooling around two 20 PPG scorers in their prime. I think it's foolish to believe they are who they are at 22 years. Look at the best players in the league. Outside of Giannis, Simmons and Embiid, none of them are as young as Wiggins and Towns. Young players don't run this league. People need to get over this perception that our 22 year olds need to be top 10-20 guys right now or they'll never get there. All the top young guys in the league have room to grow including our guys.
Wiggins will be 24 before the next season ends.
And at some point, years of NBA experience trumps chronological age. After 4 years and 320+ games... Wiggins should be showing statistical signs of improving... not regressing.
So your expectations were Wiggins stats should have significantly increased after we added Jimmy? His usage fell off from 29 to 23.4 and he's supposed to show an increase in statistical output? That kind of hierarchy change we had takes more than a year to figure out Imo. If Wiggins is same old same old this year I'll jump on board the he's never getting better train, but in a year where most young players his caliber are given the keys to really take over, he had to take a step back to Jimmy.
Well at that time we'd be re-tooling around two 20 PPG scorers in their prime. I think it's foolish to believe they are who they are at 22 years. Look at the best players in the league. Outside of Giannis, Simmons and Embiid, none of them are as young as Wiggins and Towns. Young players don't run this league. People need to get over this perception that our 22 year olds need to be top 10-20 guys right now or they'll never get there. All the top young guys in the league have room to grow including our guys.
Wiggins will be 24 before the next season ends.
And at some point, years of NBA experience trumps chronological age. After 4 years and 320+ games... Wiggins should be showing statistical signs of improving... not regressing.
So your expectations were Wiggins stats should have significantly increased after we added Jimmy? His usage fell off from 29 to 23.4 and he's supposed to show an increase in statistical output? That kind of hierarchy change we had takes more than a year to figure out Imo. If Wiggins is same old same old this year I'll jump on board the he's never getting better train, but in a year where most young players his caliber are given the keys to really take over, he had to take a step back to Jimmy.
Not necessarily. But it would have been cool if he had improved statistically in even one offensive area... especially efficiency. Watching a young talented guy who posted solid to good volume stats on losing teams become less efficient on a team that makes the playoffs... was disappointing.
Better stats:
- REB
- DWS
- DBPM (still a negative though)
- BPM (still a negative though)
- VORP (still a negative though)
- TO
Look... for the 4th straight season... I'm going to give Andrew Wiggins the benefit of the doubt more often than not. Because he's really just that important for the future of the franchise. We have to hope for him to improve. But after 332 games of high-volume but low-efficiency play that statistically has largely stagnated or regressed... I'm worried.
I don't see how anybody wouldn't be worried at this point.
Duke13 wrote:I just saw a report Memphis is looking to unload the #4 pick along with Parson. Not 100% sure but I'm guessing he has two year left on his deal. I'm not gonna say there is no way Wig reaches his potential, but I'd say it's unlikely at this point. I'd be willing to do this deal I think, could we possibly try and include Gorgi in the deal?
Maybe I'm struggling not having a high lottery pick after so many year of having one. And I know I'm plenty ready to move on from Wig
So I heard a podcast today with Bill Simmons and Chris Vernon, the Memphis play-by-play guy.
They mentioned Harrison Barnes (AND the #5 pick) for the #4 and Parsons' contract.
I know most people realize Memphis wouldn't do the OP deal. But this sorta reveals just how unlikely it is.
Honestly, I think the Barnes + No. 5 pick is even more unreasonable than the Wiggins idea.
Are you saying...
Wiggins > Barnes + #5?
All I know is the Mavs aren't dealing Barnes and taking on Chandler to move up ONE draft spot. So yes i can see it being more unrealistic than the Wiggins deal because there is ZERO chance the Mavs do that deal.
Ok. Gotcha. Sure. I can see that.
I was looking at it from the other side of how unrealistic the #4 for Wiggins was.
Yep I got that after reading your post like 5 times...my brain hasn't been the best the past couple days. We agree on this trade and regardless for like 47.35789 reasons this trade (Wiggins for #4) isn't going to happen (IMO from either side) and unless someone comes up with some sort of really impressive offer I have doubts Memphis moves the pick. Teams are gonna call maybe someone blows them away.
