longstrangetrip wrote:I think Wolves' players are showing a lot of class and restraint in not unloading on Thibs, but some of the positive comments they are making about Ryan also serve as veiled criticisms of Thibs IMO. KAT last night: "(Saunders) did an absolute amazing job. Got to give a lot of credit to him. He made a lot of great moves. This loss is on us as players. We didn't come out and execute the way we needed to". Unusual comments after a loss, but meaningful I think. By the way, I don't necessarily agree...Ryan is clearly trying to figure things out, and did some things last night that had me scratching my head. But KAT's comment tells me that our most important player is clearly on board with Ryan as coach, and that can't be considered anything other than a good thing.
Huh!? How many times has Towns, Wiggins, Gibson, etc. said that the players lost the game and that Thibs had them prepared blah blah. In what way is that an unusual comment? Your constant search for the most minimal things to criticize someone over have grown old with me. You did it plenty with Kevin Love and Tom Thibodeau. Who will be your next target?
Cam, I understand that things must be a little lonely as the sole remaining person on Thibodeau Island...you were by far Thibs' biggest advocate when many of us were calling his hiring a dumb move, and continued to support him when his results in his first season showed no improvement over the much-maligned Sam Mitchell, so I'm not surprised that it's difficult for you to see differences in how the players talk about Ryan compared to his predecessor. Yes, I agree that the portion of KAT's quote that you highlighted sounds like the usual blather we hear from players post-game..."the coaches prepared us well, we just didn't execute, blah, blah, blah." But you conveniently didn't highlight the rest of the quote. "Saunders did an amazing job. Got to give a lot of credit to him. He made a lot of great moves". After the OkC win KAT said "He just kept making the right moves. He played chess all night and came out with a checkmate." I googled "Karl Towns praises Thibs as a coach" just now, and didn't find anything near as positive as the comments he has already made about Ryan after just three games...just the usual blather about player responsibility that you cite. I get that you don't agree that the players are talking about and reacting to Ryan quite differently than they did to Thibs, but we're just going to have to leave that behind as an unresolved difference of opinion.
longstrangetrip wrote:I think Wolves' players are showing a lot of class and restraint in not unloading on Thibs, but some of the positive comments they are making about Ryan also serve as veiled criticisms of Thibs IMO. KAT last night: "(Saunders) did an absolute amazing job. Got to give a lot of credit to him. He made a lot of great moves. This loss is on us as players. We didn't come out and execute the way we needed to". Unusual comments after a loss, but meaningful I think. By the way, I don't necessarily agree...Ryan is clearly trying to figure things out, and did some things last night that had me scratching my head. But KAT's comment tells me that our most important player is clearly on board with Ryan as coach, and that can't be considered anything other than a good thing.
Huh!? How many times has Towns, Wiggins, Gibson, etc. said that the players lost the game and that Thibs had them prepared blah blah. In what way is that an unusual comment? Your constant search for the most minimal things to criticize someone over have grown old with me. You did it plenty with Kevin Love and Tom Thibodeau. Who will be your next target?
Cam, I understand that things must be a little lonely as the sole remaining person on Thibodeau Island...you were by far Thibs' biggest advocate when many of us were calling his hiring a dumb move, and continued to support him when his results in his first season showed no improvement over the much-maligned Sam Mitchell, so I'm not surprised that it's difficult for you to see differences in how the players talk about Ryan compared to his predecessor. Yes, I agree that the portion of KAT's quote that you highlighted sounds like the usual blather we hear from players post-game..."the coaches prepared us well, we just didn't execute, blah, blah, blah." But you conveniently didn't highlight the rest of the quote. "Saunders did an amazing job. Got to give a lot of credit to him. He made a lot of great moves". After the OkC win KAT said "He just kept making the right moves. He played chess all night and came out with a checkmate." I googled "Karl Towns praises Thibs as a coach" just now, and didn't find anything near as positive as the comments he has already made about Ryan after just three games...just the usual blather about player responsibility that you cite. I get that you don't agree that the players are talking about and reacting to Ryan quite differently than they did to Thibs, but we're just going to have to leave that behind as an unresolved difference of opinion.
Or I just don't over-analyze post game interviews because most of the time they're meaningless. I'm utterly shocked that the star player and leader of the team had kind words for the brand new head coach and son of the man that drafted him No. 1 overall years ago. That must mean Saunders is on his way to Coach of the Year. Outstanding.
longstrangetrip wrote:I think Wolves' players are showing a lot of class and restraint in not unloading on Thibs, but some of the positive comments they are making about Ryan also serve as veiled criticisms of Thibs IMO. KAT last night: "(Saunders) did an absolute amazing job. Got to give a lot of credit to him. He made a lot of great moves. This loss is on us as players. We didn't come out and execute the way we needed to". Unusual comments after a loss, but meaningful I think. By the way, I don't necessarily agree...Ryan is clearly trying to figure things out, and did some things last night that had me scratching my head. But KAT's comment tells me that our most important player is clearly on board with Ryan as coach, and that can't be considered anything other than a good thing.
Huh!? How many times has Towns, Wiggins, Gibson, etc. said that the players lost the game and that Thibs had them prepared blah blah. In what way is that an unusual comment? Your constant search for the most minimal things to criticize someone over have grown old with me. You did it plenty with Kevin Love and Tom Thibodeau. Who will be your next target?
Cam, I understand that things must be a little lonely as the sole remaining person on Thibodeau Island...you were by far Thibs' biggest advocate when many of us were calling his hiring a dumb move, and continued to support him when his results in his first season showed no improvement over the much-maligned Sam Mitchell, so I'm not surprised that it's difficult for you to see differences in how the players talk about Ryan compared to his predecessor. Yes, I agree that the portion of KAT's quote that you highlighted sounds like the usual blather we hear from players post-game..."the coaches prepared us well, we just didn't execute, blah, blah, blah." But you conveniently didn't highlight the rest of the quote. "Saunders did an amazing job. Got to give a lot of credit to him. He made a lot of great moves". After the OkC win KAT said "He just kept making the right moves. He played chess all night and came out with a checkmate." I googled "Karl Towns praises Thibs as a coach" just now, and didn't find anything near as positive as the comments he has already made about Ryan after just three games...just the usual blather about player responsibility that you cite. I get that you don't agree that the players are talking about and reacting to Ryan quite differently than they did to Thibs, but we're just going to have to leave that behind as an unresolved difference of opinion.
Or I just don't over-analyze post game interviews because most of the time they're meaningless. I'm utterly shocked that the star player and leader of the team had kind words for the brand new head coach and son of the man that drafted him No. 1 overall years ago. That must mean Saunders is on his way to Coach of the Year. Outstanding.
Nope, certainly never said he's on his way to COY and certainly don't think so...in fact, I have openly criticized some of his lineups against Dallas. He's raw, and is going to have to figure things out on the fly. All I'm saying is Ryan is clearly a huge upgrade over Thibs, but you're welcome to a contrary opinion.
We also differ on the importance of listening to what players say. While I agree that the tired clichés are meaningless, I find it even more meaningful when they say something that clearly shows they are trying to make a point rather than just getting through the drudgery of another interview. And that's what I'm hearing this week, along with much of the local media...and I find that quite telling. Maybe you don't see the difference between comments like "Ryan is playing chess", "Saunders did an amazing job", and "he made a lot of great moves", and the usual post-game drivel like "we just didn't execute", and that's fine. But it's not just KAT...it's several of the players complimenting what Ryan is doing. And again we'll just have to disagree on this one, because I see an extraordinary difference in both how the players are talking about Ryan compared to how they would talk about Thibs, and how they are responding to him as a coach. And I'm convinced that is a very good thing for this franchise.
I believe you are based overseas Cam. Perhaps you should trust the guys here that actually go to games and sit with other season ticket holders. Thibs was despised by most of these folks and they are important to the franchise. I'm sorry, but unless you are winning tons and tons of games, you can't alienate your business colleagues, loyal season ticket holders, and (some) players. He did more than just rub a few peope the wrong way. And you can absolutely tell the players are responding differently with Ryan than with Thibs. Does that mean we are headed for a playoff berth? Probably not, but I can guarantee you business and the mood will be a little better in the Target Center the rest of this season.
As I see it Thibs would have been a lot more effective in a singular role. Since early last year I was stating that he should move upstairs and let Saunders coach. He was clearly bringing a win now philosophy to both roles which was ultimately a blessing and a curse. I think he did positively affect the team play by establishing a sense of urgency. He showed the players how much prep you need to be successful. He was just a poor communicator, a micromanager, and not inspirational for the personality types he worked with. I ultimately think if he would have focused on the POBO role his basketball knowledge and attention for detail would have served him well. But ultimately this year was a train wreck based on expectations on both the coaching and management side. I think this is simply because both the POBO and head coach are more work than one person can handle. Especially when that one person is a psycho.
Thibs didn't get to where he was by not having any qualities. There are some things he did well. But any objective, rational person would have to admit his tenure was nothing but an abject failure. He took over what HE considered the best young roster in the league and proceeded to tear it apart almost immediately. His nearsightedness did get us into a mismatch in the playoffs, but at what cost? Now we are in NBA purgatory, too good to get any meaningful draft assets, and not good enough to be a contender. Combine that with the Butler fiasco and all the negative energy surrounding his reign and you have nothing but a complete failure.
In fairness to Cam, 90% of the board was on the hire Thibs bandwagon. Problem was most were just reacting to the incessant propping up of Thibs that he was doing. I like people who come on here with strong opinions, but not the stubbornness that sometimes comes with them. When the gig is up, it's up.
thedoper wrote:As I see it Thibs would have been a lot more effective in a singular role. Since early last year I was stating that he should move upstairs and let Saunders coach. He was clearly bringing a win now philosophy to both roles which was ultimately a blessing and a curse. I think he did positively affect the team play by establishing a sense of urgency. He showed the players how much prep you need to be successful. He was just a poor communicator, a micromanager, and not inspirational for the personality types he worked with. I ultimately think if he would have focused on the POBO role his basketball knowledge and attention for detail would have served him well. But ultimately this year was a train wreck based on expectations on both the coaching and management side. I think this is simply because both the POBO and head coach are more work than one person can handle. Especially when that one person is a psycho.
Very well stated, doper...I was with you on your Thibs/Ryan idea. I think you present well the drive and basketball knowledge that Thibs has, and the qualities that made his failure in the dual role inevitable.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Thibs didn't get to where he was by not having any qualities. There are some things he did well. But any objective, rational person would have to admit his tenure was nothing but an abject failure. He took over what HE considered the best young roster in the league and proceeded to tear it apart almost immediately. His nearsightedness did get us into a mismatch in the playoffs, but at what cost? Now we are in NBA purgatory, too good to get any meaningful draft assets, and not good enough to be a contender. Combine that with the Butler fiasco and all the negative energy surrounding his reign and you have nothing but a complete failure.
How are the Bulls doing with Dunn, Zach and Lauri? Zach/Wiggins/Towns would be a majority of our cap space so that team would be in purgatory as well...only they would suck real bad on top of it.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:Thibs didn't get to where he was by not having any qualities. There are some things he did well. But any objective, rational person would have to admit his tenure was nothing but an abject failure. He took over what HE considered the best young roster in the league and proceeded to tear it apart almost immediately. His nearsightedness did get us into a mismatch in the playoffs, but at what cost? Now we are in NBA purgatory, too good to get any meaningful draft assets, and not good enough to be a contender. Combine that with the Butler fiasco and all the negative energy surrounding his reign and you have nothing but a complete failure.
How are the Bulls doing with Dunn, Zach and Lauri? Zach/Wiggins/Towns would be a majority of our cap space so that team would be in purgatory as well...only they would suck real bad on top of it.
I don't understand your point. We got rid of a PG who was perfect for our team, and there was no law that said we would have to draft Lauri. So are you saying we would have sucked no matter what the front office did? Teams have become contenders with much less than what we had to start with.
