sjm34 wrote:Seems like Rosas did trade up for Garland, but criticizing him for making the move without knowing where Garland would go is a little silly. If he knew he would drop to six, would phoenix have traded the pick to us???
While I don't believe that he wanted Culver (based on rumors that we were trying to trade back after Garland was off teh board), I have no problem with the pick. While he may be as quck or athletic as some, they say he does everything well and has a feel for the game with good footwork, and great hesitation moves. Hesitation moves are what made Brandon Roy great. That's how you get to the line (Harden)
What is silly is giving up a valuable asset to get someone without knowing for sure that you'll get him. The Suns must have concluded that the Cavs would take Garland and keep him, which as you suggested helps explain why the Suns did the deal to move down to #11. That the Suns were smart enough to know they wouldn't get Garland at #6 makes Rosas look especially silly trading up to get him. Of course, maybe the Suns had no interest in Garland. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Rosas traded up for a guy without knowing he could get him. Again, I get it if Rosas was convinced that Culver was a much better prospect than anyone he could have taken at #11. We'll see.
Culver literally grades out as good or better at everything. Of course, there is still room to grow, but getting a player that has the scoring versatility that he has and the physical gifts he has with the defensive prowess he has -- he was deserving of a top-five pick and Rosas trading up to grab him at six was a good calculated risk. Culver has the potential to be an All-Star but has the floor of a very solid starting wing.
I would have been happy staying put at 11 and taking Herro, but I'm also happy with our current draft to include Culver. I have little doubt that he will be good in the NBA.
Good post, Cam. This is good information that I hadn't seen. I'm looking for positives about Culver and your post provides some good one. Thanks.
sjm34 wrote:Seems like Rosas did trade up for Garland, but criticizing him for making the move without knowing where Garland would go is a little silly. If he knew he would drop to six, would phoenix have traded the pick to us???
While I don't believe that he wanted Culver (based on rumors that we were trying to trade back after Garland was off teh board), I have no problem with the pick. While he may be as quck or athletic as some, they say he does everything well and has a feel for the game with good footwork, and great hesitation moves. Hesitation moves are what made Brandon Roy great. That's how you get to the line (Harden)
What is silly is giving up a valuable asset to get someone without knowing for sure that you'll get him. The Suns must have concluded that the Cavs would take Garland and keep him, which as you suggested helps explain why the Suns did the deal to move down to #11. That the Suns were smart enough to know they wouldn't get Garland at #6 makes Rosas look especially silly trading up to get him. Of course, maybe the Suns had no interest in Garland. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Rosas traded up for a guy without knowing he could get him. Again, I get it if Rosas was convinced that Culver was a much better prospect than anyone he could have taken at #11. We'll see.
Lip can I ask you what value you think Saric has around the league. He doesn't have a big contract so its hard to acquire a better/bigger contract because you need to add multiple pieces to the trade. Saric is about to get paid in RFA for being a fringe NBA starter, and in my opinion his value is lower to other teams knowing they will have to pay him next year.
Now if Rosas really believed that after Culver there is a drop off and that there was a chance to get his best player available Garlund I don't blame Rosas for taking the risk.
Now if he legit had Culver a tier below Garlund and that he had Culver in a tier with guys who might be available at 11 then we have a problem but I legit don't believe that. The draft express guys had Culver there 3rd best prospect ahead of Barrett and Kevin O'Conner had him also 3rd ahead of Morant (Now these draft guys can totally be wrong but Its not like other guys didn't have Culver high)
sjm34 wrote:Seems like Rosas did trade up for Garland, but criticizing him for making the move without knowing where Garland would go is a little silly. If he knew he would drop to six, would phoenix have traded the pick to us???
While I don't believe that he wanted Culver (based on rumors that we were trying to trade back after Garland was off teh board), I have no problem with the pick. While he may be as quck or athletic as some, they say he does everything well and has a feel for the game with good footwork, and great hesitation moves. Hesitation moves are what made Brandon Roy great. That's how you get to the line (Harden)
What is silly is giving up a valuable asset to get someone without knowing for sure that you'll get him. The Suns must have concluded that the Cavs would take Garland and keep him, which as you suggested helps explain why the Suns did the deal to move down to #11. That the Suns were smart enough to know they wouldn't get Garland at #6 makes Rosas look especially silly trading up to get him. Of course, maybe the Suns had no interest in Garland. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Rosas traded up for a guy without knowing he could get him. Again, I get it if Rosas was convinced that Culver was a much better prospect than anyone he could have taken at #11. We'll see.
Lip can I ask you what value you think Saric has around the league. He doesn't have a big contract so its hard to acquire a better/bigger contract because you need to add multiple pieces to the trade. Saric is about to get paid in RFA for being a fringe NBA starter, and in my opinion his value is lower to other teams knowing they will have to pay him next year.
Now if Rosas really believed that after Culver there is a drop off and that there was a chance to get his best player available Garlund I don't blame Rosas for taking the risk.
Now if he legit had Culver a tier below Garlund and that he had Culver in a tier with guys who might be available at 11 then we have a problem but I legit don't believe that. The draft express guys had Culver there 3rd best prospect ahead of Barrett and Kevin O'Conner had him also 3rd ahead of Morant (Now these draft guys can totally be wrong but Its not like other guys didn't have Culver high)
The Suns were smart enough to trade down and draft a guy a lot of people thought would go 10-20 picks later. Maybe the Suns knew something the media folks didn't. I know Lip you liked Cam Johnson a lot but a few draft folks actually said (this was before the draft) they think he will be lucky to be an average defender. I thought that was a bit eye opening.
sjm34 wrote:Seems like Rosas did trade up for Garland, but criticizing him for making the move without knowing where Garland would go is a little silly. If he knew he would drop to six, would phoenix have traded the pick to us???
While I don't believe that he wanted Culver (based on rumors that we were trying to trade back after Garland was off teh board), I have no problem with the pick. While he may be as quck or athletic as some, they say he does everything well and has a feel for the game with good footwork, and great hesitation moves. Hesitation moves are what made Brandon Roy great. That's how you get to the line (Harden)
What is silly is giving up a valuable asset to get someone without knowing for sure that you'll get him. The Suns must have concluded that the Cavs would take Garland and keep him, which as you suggested helps explain why the Suns did the deal to move down to #11. That the Suns were smart enough to know they wouldn't get Garland at #6 makes Rosas look especially silly trading up to get him. Of course, maybe the Suns had no interest in Garland. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Rosas traded up for a guy without knowing he could get him. Again, I get it if Rosas was convinced that Culver was a much better prospect than anyone he could have taken at #11. We'll see.
Cleveland was trying to trade the sixth pick right up to the point that they took Garland, so I don't see how PHO would have known better. I am assuming Rosas tried to make a deal with Cleveland (maybe before the pHO deal) but the asking price was too high. Instead he rolled the dice on number six, hoping that Cleveland went for the best fit. Don't have a problem with that at all. Rosas is clearly s;mart enough to realize the wolves aren't contending without another star player, and Saric would never be that. Not to mention his upcoming contract. Saric doesn't strike me as being a player in high demand. If you don't value Culver higher than other options at #11 that is fine, but too criticize the move by Rosas makes no sense.
sjm34 wrote:Seems like Rosas did trade up for Garland, but criticizing him for making the move without knowing where Garland would go is a little silly. If he knew he would drop to six, would phoenix have traded the pick to us???
While I don't believe that he wanted Culver (based on rumors that we were trying to trade back after Garland was off teh board), I have no problem with the pick. While he may be as quck or athletic as some, they say he does everything well and has a feel for the game with good footwork, and great hesitation moves. Hesitation moves are what made Brandon Roy great. That's how you get to the line (Harden)
What is silly is giving up a valuable asset to get someone without knowing for sure that you'll get him. The Suns must have concluded that the Cavs would take Garland and keep him, which as you suggested helps explain why the Suns did the deal to move down to #11. That the Suns were smart enough to know they wouldn't get Garland at #6 makes Rosas look especially silly trading up to get him. Of course, maybe the Suns had no interest in Garland. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Rosas traded up for a guy without knowing he could get him. Again, I get it if Rosas was convinced that Culver was a much better prospect than anyone he could have taken at #11. We'll see.
Lip can I ask you what value you think Saric has around the league. He doesn't have a big contract so its hard to acquire a better/bigger contract because you need to add multiple pieces to the trade. Saric is about to get paid in RFA for being a fringe NBA starter, and in my opinion his value is lower to other teams knowing they will have to pay him next year.
Now if Rosas really believed that after Culver there is a drop off and that there was a chance to get his best player available Garlund I don't blame Rosas for taking the risk.
Now if he legit had Culver a tier below Garlund and that he had Culver in a tier with guys who might be available at 11 then we have a problem but I legit don't believe that. The draft express guys had Culver there 3rd best prospect ahead of Barrett and Kevin O'Conner had him also 3rd ahead of Morant (Now these draft guys can totally be wrong but Its not like other guys didn't have Culver high)
The Suns were smart enough to trade down and draft a guy a lot of people thought would go 10-20 picks later. Maybe the Suns knew something the media folks didn't. I know Lip you liked Cam Johnson a lot but a few draft folks actually said (this was before the draft) they think he will be lucky to be an average defender. I thought that was a bit eye opening.
Now I do think the Suns pick was a little comical and they don't get the benefit of the doubt because how bad there GM and owner have been (I know James Jones just took over) but I won't blame a team taking the guy they think is going to be good and go away from the group think that comes when looking at the mock drafts.
sjm34 wrote:Seems like Rosas did trade up for Garland, but criticizing him for making the move without knowing where Garland would go is a little silly. If he knew he would drop to six, would phoenix have traded the pick to us???
While I don't believe that he wanted Culver (based on rumors that we were trying to trade back after Garland was off teh board), I have no problem with the pick. While he may be as quck or athletic as some, they say he does everything well and has a feel for the game with good footwork, and great hesitation moves. Hesitation moves are what made Brandon Roy great. That's how you get to the line (Harden)
What is silly is giving up a valuable asset to get someone without knowing for sure that you'll get him. The Suns must have concluded that the Cavs would take Garland and keep him, which as you suggested helps explain why the Suns did the deal to move down to #11. That the Suns were smart enough to know they wouldn't get Garland at #6 makes Rosas look especially silly trading up to get him. Of course, maybe the Suns had no interest in Garland. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Rosas traded up for a guy without knowing he could get him. Again, I get it if Rosas was convinced that Culver was a much better prospect than anyone he could have taken at #11. We'll see.
Lip can I ask you what value you think Saric has around the league. He doesn't have a big contract so its hard to acquire a better/bigger contract because you need to add multiple pieces to the trade. Saric is about to get paid in RFA for being a fringe NBA starter, and in my opinion his value is lower to other teams knowing they will have to pay him next year.
Now if Rosas really believed that after Culver there is a drop off and that there was a chance to get his best player available Garlund I don't blame Rosas for taking the risk.
Now if he legit had Culver a tier below Garlund and that he had Culver in a tier with guys who might be available at 11 then we have a problem but I legit don't believe that. The draft express guys had Culver there 3rd best prospect ahead of Barrett and Kevin O'Conner had him also 3rd ahead of Morant (Now these draft guys can totally be wrong but Its not like other guys didn't have Culver high)
The Suns were smart enough to trade down and draft a guy a lot of people thought would go 10-20 picks later. Maybe the Suns knew something the media folks didn't. I know Lip you liked Cam Johnson a lot but a few draft folks actually said (this was before the draft) they think he will be lucky to be an average defender. I thought that was a bit eye opening.
i liked Cam Johnson, but I thought the Suns made a big mistake taking him at #11. And that's before I found out post-draft that Johnson has some serious medical issues that caused some teams to "red flag him" as a prospect they wouldn't draft under any circumstances. So the Suns front office continues to remain one of the League's worst in my view.
I have Tom Petty's voice in my head now and I can't wait to see Culver in action. I'm headed to Vegas for the first 4 days of Summer League. Culver won't be able to play Friday July 5, but I'm hoping he'll be in action the following days, which will give me 2 games to watch him live on July 7 and 8.
sjm34 wrote:Seems like Rosas did trade up for Garland, but criticizing him for making the move without knowing where Garland would go is a little silly. If he knew he would drop to six, would phoenix have traded the pick to us???
While I don't believe that he wanted Culver (based on rumors that we were trying to trade back after Garland was off teh board), I have no problem with the pick. While he may be as quck or athletic as some, they say he does everything well and has a feel for the game with good footwork, and great hesitation moves. Hesitation moves are what made Brandon Roy great. That's how you get to the line (Harden)
What is silly is giving up a valuable asset to get someone without knowing for sure that you'll get him. The Suns must have concluded that the Cavs would take Garland and keep him, which as you suggested helps explain why the Suns did the deal to move down to #11. That the Suns were smart enough to know they wouldn't get Garland at #6 makes Rosas look especially silly trading up to get him. Of course, maybe the Suns had no interest in Garland. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Rosas traded up for a guy without knowing he could get him. Again, I get it if Rosas was convinced that Culver was a much better prospect than anyone he could have taken at #11. We'll see.
Lip can I ask you what value you think Saric has around the league. He doesn't have a big contract so its hard to acquire a better/bigger contract because you need to add multiple pieces to the trade. Saric is about to get paid in RFA for being a fringe NBA starter, and in my opinion his value is lower to other teams knowing they will have to pay him next year.
Now if Rosas really believed that after Culver there is a drop off and that there was a chance to get his best player available Garlund I don't blame Rosas for taking the risk.
Now if he legit had Culver a tier below Garlund and that he had Culver in a tier with guys who might be available at 11 then we have a problem but I legit don't believe that. The draft express guys had Culver there 3rd best prospect ahead of Barrett and Kevin O'Conner had him also 3rd ahead of Morant (Now these draft guys can totally be wrong but Its not like other guys didn't have Culver high)
The Suns were smart enough to trade down and draft a guy a lot of people thought would go 10-20 picks later. Maybe the Suns knew something the media folks didn't. I know Lip you liked Cam Johnson a lot but a few draft folks actually said (this was before the draft) they think he will be lucky to be an average defender. I thought that was a bit eye opening.
i liked Cam Johnson, but I thought the Suns made a big mistake taking him at #11. And that's before I found out post-draft that Johnson has some serious medical issues that caused some teams to "red flag him" as a prospect they wouldn't draft under any circumstances. So the Suns front office continues to remain one of the League's worst in my view.
I have Tom Petty's voice in my head now and I can't wait to see Culver in action. I'm headed to Vegas for the first 4 days of Summer League. Culver won't be able to play Friday July 5, but I'm hoping he'll be in action the following days, which will give me 2 games to watch him live on July 7 and 8.
Have fun in Vegas Lip, it is so dumb that Culver can't play the 1st game, Rosas is still not allowed to talk to him. Culver is not allowed to practice with the Summer League team until the 6th and Culver can't work out with Saunders. It is so dumb. This year more dumb than years past
sjm34 wrote:Seems like Rosas did trade up for Garland, but criticizing him for making the move without knowing where Garland would go is a little silly. If he knew he would drop to six, would phoenix have traded the pick to us???
While I don't believe that he wanted Culver (based on rumors that we were trying to trade back after Garland was off teh board), I have no problem with the pick. While he may be as quck or athletic as some, they say he does everything well and has a feel for the game with good footwork, and great hesitation moves. Hesitation moves are what made Brandon Roy great. That's how you get to the line (Harden)
What is silly is giving up a valuable asset to get someone without knowing for sure that you'll get him. The Suns must have concluded that the Cavs would take Garland and keep him, which as you suggested helps explain why the Suns did the deal to move down to #11. That the Suns were smart enough to know they wouldn't get Garland at #6 makes Rosas look especially silly trading up to get him. Of course, maybe the Suns had no interest in Garland. But that still doesn't change the fact that the Rosas traded up for a guy without knowing he could get him. Again, I get it if Rosas was convinced that Culver was a much better prospect than anyone he could have taken at #11. We'll see.
Cleveland was trying to trade the sixth pick right up to the point that they took Garland, so I don't see how PHO would have known better. I am assuming Rosas tried to make a deal with Cleveland (maybe before the pHO deal) but the asking price was too high. Instead he rolled the dice on number six, hoping that Cleveland went for the best fit. Don't have a problem with that at all. Rosas is clearly s;mart enough to realize the wolves aren't contending without another star player, and Saric would never be that. Not to mention his upcoming contract. Saric doesn't strike me as being a player in high demand. If you don't value Culver higher than other options at #11 that is fine, but too criticize the move by Rosas makes no sense.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. To me it makes no sense to give up a valuable asset for a player if you're not certain you can get that player. I don't know exactly how much value Saric had around the League. But Saric had enough value to move the Wolves up 5 spots in the draft. So I assume he would have been valuable in other potential deals to increase the Wolves' chances of landing another all-star caliber player. One possibility would have been including Saric to get more picks since the more picks you have the more chances you have to strike gold. Or maybe he could have helped induce another team to take one of our underachieving big contracts to clear cap space. In any event, we just disagree on this. I can be persuaded that Culver was worth trading up for, but I can't be persuaded that it makes sense to trade value for a guy you're not sure you can get -- again, unless Rosas considered Culver to me significantly better than the likely choices at #11. And that could definitely be what Rosas was thinking.
I think having monty Williams as the new coach really helped us move up. I don't think anyone else would have taken saric to move up into the mid lottery.
