Butler requests trade...

[mjs34]

I didn't read this article as this GM thinks this is what is best for the Timberwolves. I read it as an opportunity for someone who has been working in the game to bitch about the state of the league with some candid honesty. For the overall betterment of the game Jimmy should be made a lesson in this instance. It's a shitty way for him to conduct business and shouldn't be rewarded by getting what he wants here. I also agree with the source wholeheartedly that we shouldn't be blindly trusting scoop oriented reports like Woj on the internal state of the Wolves when his sources are likely agents with a pro-player and not pro-fan agenda. The way the NBA is reported now you may as well relegate the whole league to 10 teams. It sucks. The situation has sucked for Minnesota since their inception but now there's no point in even hiding it. Star players want to leave the franchises that have given them often hundreds of millions of dollars and the national coverage lauds them for it. It's getting even harder to be a fan in a small market. I feel for New Orleans and Milwaukee. Their time is coming too and the media will praise them for going to LA. It's sad.

I agree Doper.

I would have no problem with the wolves playing hardball. If they can get something comparable to what they gave up to get him, fine. No way I take 50 cents on the dollar for him. If I was Thibs, I would tell his agent what we want, and let him find a deal to bring to us. If nothing else, it would show Jimmy that he isn't as highly sought after as he thinks, and that he would have been lucky to get a max offer from us.

Lip, if Jimmy sits out the season (without a valid reason or permission) he wouldn't a FA next season. I just read somewhere that he has 30 days from the start of camp (or longer when rehabbing) to show up, or he doesn't get credit for the season on his contract. Not sure how credible the source was because I honestly don't remember where I saw that.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

To me it's basically a 50/50 shot that Jimmy's value goes up going into Feb. Teams are locked in and healthy now. There isn't much cap space out there because they've filled out their rosters. They are overvaluing their players. That all could change once the season starts. What if Miami comes out of the gates .500 for the first month? You don't think they'd start to get desperate for a move? What if these "untouchable" pieces have an off month? Jimmy is Jimmy. I don't see how his value goes down especially if he is sitting out and not an injury risk. I find it far less likely a Miami or Philly come out as a favorite and lose complete interest in a trade than they get off to a slow start and start easing off their "untouchables".

[Coolbreeze44]

Here is what I currently think is happening: Thibs is trying to wait Butler out. He's not making serious trade proposals because he doesn't think Jimmy is going to sit out all year. He's betting he eventually decides that getting paid is more important than avoiding playing for the Wolves. He also knows Jimmy can't get the maximum dollars unless he plays the last year of his contract. So I think Thibs has no plans or desire to trade him. I disagree with Khans about his value possibly going up. If he does come back to play he will undoubtedly get hurt at some point. And the closer you get to the end of the year the less leverage we are going to have, as Jimmy would be a free agent and teams could sign him without additional compensation. It's a dangerous game of cat and mouse Thibs is playing. He's trying to save his job by giving the Wolves the best chance to win this year, but the risks are two-fold: 1) Glen could fire him at any time 2) If Jimmy ends up walking for nothing he will surely be fired once we are out of contention. These seem like desperate tactics to me. Maybe he feels backed into a corner and has no other choice.

[Lipoli390]

I didn't read this article as this GM thinks this is what is best for the Timberwolves. I read it as an opportunity for someone who has been working in the game to bitch about the state of the league with some candid honesty. For the overall betterment of the game Jimmy should be made a lesson in this instance. It's a shitty way for him to conduct business and shouldn't be rewarded by getting what he wants here. I also agree with the source wholeheartedly that we shouldn't be blindly trusting scoop oriented reports like Woj on the internal state of the Wolves when his sources are likely agents with a pro-player and not pro-fan agenda. The way the NBA is reported now you may as well relegate the whole league to 10 teams. It sucks. The situation has sucked for Minnesota since their inception but now there's no point in even hiding it. Star players want to leave the franchises that have given them often hundreds of millions of dollars and the national coverage lauds them for it. It's getting even harder to be a fan in a small market. I feel for New Orleans and Milwaukee. Their time is coming too and the media will praise them for going to LA. It's sad.

I agree Doper.

I would have no problem with the wolves playing hardball. If they can get something comparable to what they gave up to get him, fine. No way I take 50 cents on the dollar for him. If I was Thibs, I would tell his agent what we want, and let him find a deal to bring to us. If nothing else, it would show Jimmy that he isn't as highly sought after as he thinks, and that he would have been lucky to get a max offer from us.

Lip, if Jimmy sits out the season (without a valid reason or permission) he wouldn't a FA next season. I just read somewhere that he has 30 days from the start of camp (or longer when rehabbing) to show up, or he doesn't get credit for the season on his contract. Not sure how credible the source was because I honestly don't remember where I saw that.

You're right about what happens if Jimmy sits out without an excuse or permission. But he can probably find a medical excuse like elective surgery. Look what KL did. If not, then what have we gained? Butler would be even more pissed next season and players around the League (moreso their agents) would potentially blackball the Wolves.

Reports on the internal state of the Wolves have come from a lot of sources and date back many months even before the end of last season. And Thibodeau's repetition precedes him. It should go without saying that we shouldn't believe everything we read. But multiple consistent reports can't be ignored just because they might not be true. There are very few things in life we actually see or hear with our own eyes or ears. Most of our opinions and understandings come from the reports and interpretations of others.

Should the Wolves drive a hard bargain for Jimmy? Of course they should. But we need to be realistic about what we can get for him. He's a 29-year old with a history of missing games with injuries, he has only 1 year left on his contract with no way to guaranty he'll re-sign, and he has further cemented his reputation around the League as having a toxic impact on team chemistry. So while fans may get carried away with the emotion of the moment, our front office needs to be even-tempered, thoughtful and realistic even as they attempt to drive a hard bargain.

So yes, Thibodeau and Layden should be tough, determined negotiators. And I agree that it would make sense to be clear with Jimmy's agent on what we want and tell him to help the Wolves get it. But as I've said before, I'm more concerned about our front office driving a dumb bargain than I am about them driving a hard bargain. Reports that the Wolves are seeking financial savings via the Butler deal by offloading Dieng's contract are the reports that truly trouble me for the reasons I've already stated in other posts. That's my big concern. Otherwise, go ahead, Thibodeau, and be a hard-ass negotiator. Just don't be a dumb-ass negotiator!

[Lipoli390]

Here is what I currently think is happening: Thibs is trying to wait Butler out. He's not making serious trade proposals because he doesn't think Jimmy is going to sit out all year. He's betting he eventually decides that getting paid is more important than avoiding playing for the Wolves. He also knows Jimmy can't get the maximum dollars unless he plays the last year of his contract. So I think Thibs has no plans or desire to trade him. I disagree with Khans about his value possibly going up. If he does come back to play he will undoubtedly get hurt at some point. And the closer you get to the end of the year the less leverage we are going to have, as Jimmy would be a free agent and teams could sign him without additional compensation. It's a dangerous game of cat and mouse Thibs is playing. He's trying to save his job by giving the Wolves the best chance to win this year, but the risks are two-fold: 1) Glen could fire him at any time 2) If Jimmy ends up walking for nothing he will surely be fired once we are out of contention. These seem like desperate tactics to me. Maybe he feels backed into a corner and has no other choice.

I tend to agree with you, Cool. Thibodeau is either doing exactly what you're suggesting or he is vastly over-estimating Butler's value right now. Either way, it's a dicey proposition for the Wolves because Butler's value is far more likely to go down than up over time whether its another injury or simply getting closer to free agency. But as I said, even if Thibodeau fully intends to trade Butler and is just engaged in hard-ball negotiating, I fear that Thibodeau and Layden are sabotaging their ability to get higher caliber talent by trying to use the deal as a way to off-load Gorgui's contract. In any event, Thibodeau should have been fired immediately after Butler made his trade demand. I'm on board with the vitriol aimed at Jimmy Butler by Wolves fans, but let's remember that it was Thibodeau who vouched for him, brought him here and coddled him from the minute he got here.

[Monster]

Cheryl Reeve's latest podcast with Souhan she talks about the Butler situation and I think she has some interesting thoughts and insights. Souhan shares a few things he has gleaned as well but Reeve I thought was terrific and you know she probably has a little bit more knowledge about what goes on in the Wolves organization than quite a few people.

https://talknorth.com/reeve/

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-north-souhan-podcast-network/id1014544923?mt=2&i=1000420597742

[Monster]

Here is the article about what can happen if Butler doesn't play which won't happen but it's interesting to read about to some extent. It give you something to do while you wait for the next news that we are almost done with some deal that probably won't actually happen. lol

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2018/09/25/what-if-the-timberwolves-dont-trade-jimmy-butler/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Here is what I currently think is happening: Thibs is trying to wait Butler out. He's not making serious trade proposals because he doesn't think Jimmy is going to sit out all year. He's betting he eventually decides that getting paid is more important than avoiding playing for the Wolves. He also knows Jimmy can't get the maximum dollars unless he plays the last year of his contract. So I think Thibs has no plans or desire to trade him. I disagree with Khans about his value possibly going up. If he does come back to play he will undoubtedly get hurt at some point. And the closer you get to the end of the year the less leverage we are going to have, as Jimmy would be a free agent and teams could sign him without additional compensation. It's a dangerous game of cat and mouse Thibs is playing. He's trying to save his job by giving the Wolves the best chance to win this year, but the risks are two-fold: 1) Glen could fire him at any time 2) If Jimmy ends up walking for nothing he will surely be fired once we are out of contention. These seem like desperate tactics to me. Maybe he feels backed into a corner and has no other choice.

I tend to agree with you, Cool. Thibodeau is either doing exactly what you're suggesting or he is vastly over-estimating Butler's value right now. Either way, it's a dicey proposition for the Wolves because Butler's value is far more likely to go down than up over time whether its another injury or simply getting closer to free agency. But as I said, even if Thibodeau fully intends to trade Butler and is just engaged in hard-ball negotiating, I fear that Thibodeau and Layden are sabotaging their ability to get higher caliber talent by trying to use the deal as a way to off-load Gorgui's contract. In any event, Thibodeau should have been fired immediately after Butler made his trade demand. I'm on board with the vitriol aimed at Jimmy Butler by Wolves fans, but let's remember that it was Thibodeau who vouched for him, brought him here and coddled him from the minute he got here.

Let's remember that Thibs has no power here, and Glen is not going to stay on the sidelines and let Thibs destroy this franchise. He reportedly told other owners to bypass his employees and deal directly with him when he thought Thibs was unwilling to trade Butler. I suspect there may be dual parallel paths happening here, with both Glen and Thibs/Layden pursuing possible deals. If Glen gets an offer that he thinks is very good, he will discuss it with Thibs...but ultimately he gets to make the decision. I'm on the fence on whether that is good or not. Glen understands the game, but he doesn't know it as deeply as Thibs does. But if Glen's activity keeps us in the market, it's ultimately a good thing.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Glen Taylor needs to stay out of all things basketball personnel related. He's pretty obviously not savvy enough nor qualified to make these kinds of moves, which is okay because that's not his job. Stay in your lane, Glen. Either let Thibs do his job or fire him and hire a competent replacement, and let him do the job. In no way, shape, or form should the owner be negotiating trades.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Glen Taylor needs to stay out of all things basketball personnel related. He's pretty obviously not savvy enough nor qualified to make these kinds of moves, which is okay because that's not his job. Stay in your lane, Glen. Either let Thibs do his job or fire him and hire a competent replacement, and let him do the job. In no way, shape, or form should the owner be negotiating trades.

I agree with you in principal, Cam, but the reality is that many (if not most) big NBA transactions are at least started by owners, not their employees. These guys didn't get to be billoinaires by letting their subordinates make the big decisions. Obviously Thibs knows a lot more about basketball than Glen, just like Donnie Nelson knows a lot more about basketball than Mark Cuban. But that doesn't mean Glen and Cuban are going to stay out of the way. They will listen to their GMs and let them make the day to day decisions, but when it comes to something as momentous as a Butler deal or whether to give a player a max contract or not, you better believe they are going to be in the middle of the deal. And in a way it makes sense. The GM is focused on short term success and keeping his job. The owner is focused on maximizing his investment, and generally will take a longer view. Ideally both the owner and the GM will be involved in big decisions, because that combines a long-term view with basketball acumen. But according to media reports, Thibs instincts about Butler are good for Thibs, but not for the franchise...so Glen has to be involved. You're right that he should just fire him if he doesn't think he's doing his job, and I think he would if he had a suitable candidate lined up to replace him. But until he does, he has to be looking over Thibs' shoulder, or even taking his place, throughout this entire Butler saga...it's too important to let Thibs screw it up.