Camden wrote:I'd say winning 65% of your regular season games and making the playoffs each year, constantly exceeding expectations given the circumstances and grooming several quality players over five seasons makes it okay to be called a "sure thing."
If Rick Carlisle got fired tomorrow, would he be considered rotten goods all of a sudden? Would you be opposed to hiring him because he's "recycled"? I just don't see the problem with that.
I would label those things you mention in your first paragraph positive attributes that make Thibs an attractive candidate for coach. But it's the reported issues he has had in getting along with management and comments by players about his wearing them down that drops him out of the "sure thing" category. That's why Glen and KF need to thoroughly investigate the veracity of these comments before making their decision.
I don't think anyone here considers Thibodeau "rotten goods"...I know I don't. I consider him someone who appears to have both admirable qualities and some drawbacks, and it's vital to the organization to make sure that they understand all of those before they make yet another hasty decision. The fact that Carlyle has not been fired tells us that he continues to satisfy his management team and is an excellent coach. But if he were fired...I would certainly want the Wolves to do a thorough investigation of the reasons for his dismissal prior to hiring him. That's just good business practice.
TeamRicky wrote:I know Thibs has a great regular season winning percentage, but his playoff record is not good. 23-28 or .451 percent. Should this be a concern?
Of course it should be a concern, and we're sticking our heads in the sand if we ignore it. The Wolves have a roster that has the potential to go very deep in the playoffs in 4-5 years...maybe even all the way. And they need a coach that understands that regular season wins are great, but playoff wins are what are really important. Thibs advocates can point to the absence of Rose as a reason for some of the playoff failures, but injuries are part of the game. Heck, the Cavs beat the Bulls in Thibs' last series despite missing 2 of their 3 best players. Thibs' regular season record is excellent, and that is one of the main reasons he is a leading candidate to be our next coach. But if I were Glen/KF, I would be grilling him about his playoff record and whether he believes he has any responsibility for the Bulls' poor showing. They should be asking him what he has learned, and what he plans to do different. Has he learned what the best coaches, like Pop, know...that regular season games are just a means to preparing your team for what really counts...the playoffs. Has he learned that if you periodically give your players nights off or regularly limit their minutes during the regular season, they will be healthier and fresher fo the games that really count. Absent hearing the right answer to those questions, I see no reason that Thibs won't contine to do what his history tells us he will do...overachieve in the regular season, and underachieve in the playoffs.
Camden wrote:I'd say winning 65% of your regular season games and making the playoffs each year, constantly exceeding expectations given the circumstances and grooming several quality players over five seasons makes it okay to be called a "sure thing."
If Rick Carlisle got fired tomorrow, would he be considered rotten goods all of a sudden? Would you be opposed to hiring him because he's "recycled"? I just don't see the problem with that.
I would label those things you mention in your first paragraph positive attributes that make Thibs an attractive candidate for coach. But it's the reported issues he has had in getting along with management and comments by players about his wearing them down that drops him out of the "sure thing" category. That's why Glen and KF need to thoroughly investigate the veracity of these comments before making their decision.
I don't think anyone here considers Thibodeau "rotten goods"...I know I don't. I consider him someone who appears to have both admirable qualities and some drawbacks, and it's vital to the organization to make sure that they understand all of those before they make yet another hasty decision. The fact that Carlyle has not been fired tells us that he continues to satisfy his management team and is an excellent coach. But if he were fired...I would certainly want the Wolves to do a thorough investigation of the reasons for his dismissal prior to hiring him. That's just good business practice.
Great post. If we didn't have other quality options I would proceed with Thibs in a heartbeat. We do have other quality options though so we have the luxury of thoroughly vetting the candidates. To me long term viability is the most important in our candidate. We need to do the research to determine if there is any truth to the negative stories of Thibs running his guys into the ground. If it ends up being fabricated, then get the deal done now. If there is some merit to it, we may want to give Van Gundy more of a look. With Thibs and Van Gundy as the leading candidates I think we are going to end up with a quality HC. We just need to get one that has long term viability. We are sitting in a good spot regardless.
unless there is some really horrid behind the scenes information i would vote for Thibs .. JVG was in finals but it is already almost 20 years, and in his Rockets stint, not going past first round once with team around prime TMac and Yao with pretty decent vets and bench around them that is disappointing
also Thibs has .451 post season record but JVG has .500 not that huge of a difference
Camden wrote:I'd say winning 65% of your regular season games and making the playoffs each year, constantly exceeding expectations given the circumstances and grooming several quality players over five seasons makes it okay to be called a "sure thing."
If Rick Carlisle got fired tomorrow, would he be considered rotten goods all of a sudden? Would you be opposed to hiring him because he's "recycled"? I just don't see the problem with that.
I would label those things you mention in your first paragraph positive attributes that make Thibs an attractive candidate for coach. But it's the reported issues he has had in getting along with management and comments by players about his wearing them down that drops him out of the "sure thing" category. That's why Glen and KF need to thoroughly investigate the veracity of these comments before making their decision.
I don't think anyone here considers Thibodeau "rotten goods"...I know I don't. I consider him someone who appears to have both admirable qualities and some drawbacks, and it's vital to the organization to make sure that they understand all of those before they make yet another hasty decision. The fact that Carlyle has not been fired tells us that he continues to satisfy his management team and is an excellent coach. But if he were fired...I would certainly want the Wolves to do a thorough investigation of the reasons for his dismissal prior to hiring him. That's just good business practice.
I think Rick Carlisle has been fired already twice. First he was replaced by Larry Brown in Detroit and then Jim O'Brien replaced him in Indiana. If Dallas would have thought that Carlisle can't be a good coach because he was already fired twice at the time Dallas hired him, they might not have won their only championship.
I think it has been real concern that he might wear his players down past. Even thought it is true that Chicago teams that Thibs coached were not that deep and it might have been one reason why he played his players so many minutes, I think it was not the main reason why he certain players regularly more than 40 minutes in tight games. For example Belinelli played next season more minutes in 62 win Spurs team than he had played in 45 win Chicago team. Still his minutes in Spurs varied much less than in Chicago. When Belinelli played in Spurs, he played only once less than 16 minutes and 5 times more than 36 minutes and never more than 39 minutes. In previous year under Thibbs he has quite many DNP coaches decision and had 5 games with less than 10 minutes, he also had 20 games with more than 36 minutes and he actually played in 17 of them more than 40 minutes.
Of course it is easier to control minutes in 62 win team than in 45 win team that is doing everything to stay in playoff competition since that 62 win team has much more blowout wins and has even
From what I've read Thibs has a great relationship with Luol Deng who would be a very good veteran addition either as a small ball 4 or a great bench player. If healthy Joakim Noah would also be a nice free agent addition. What Thibs brings that Van Gundy may not is relationships with current players. That matters when recruiting free agents.
TeamRicky wrote:I know Thibs has a great regular season winning percentage, but his playoff record is not good. 23-28 or .451 percent. Should this be a concern?
Of course it should be a concern, and we're sticking our heads in the sand if we ignore it. The Wolves have a roster that has the potential to go very deep in the playoffs in 4-5 years...maybe even all the way. And they need a coach that understands that regular season wins are great, but playoff wins are what are really important. Thibs advocates can point to the absence of Rose as a reason for some of the playoff failures, but injuries are part of the game. Heck, the Cavs beat the Bulls in Thibs' last series despite missing 2 of their 3 best players. Thibs' regular season record is excellent, and that is one of the main reasons he is a leading candidate to be our next coach. But if I were Glen/KF, I would be grilling him about his playoff record and whether he believes he has any responsibility for the Bulls' poor showing. They should be asking him what he has learned, and what he plans to do different. Has he learned what the best coaches, like Pop, know...that regular season games are just a means to preparing your team for what really counts...the playoffs. Has he learned that if you periodically give your players nights off or regularly limit their minutes during the regular season, they will be healthier and fresher fo the games that really count. Absent hearing the right answer to those questions, I see no reason that Thibs won't contine to do what his history tells us he will do...overachieve in the regular season, and underachieve in the playoffs.
Rick Carlisle and Jerry Sloan have also sub .500 playoff record. I think main reasons for Thibbs sub .500 playoff record are LeBron James (Thibbs playoff record against non LeBron teams is 19-16) and injuries. (Rose missed 22, Deng seven, Hinrich eight and Noah three playoff games under Thibbs)
JVG didn't get out of the first round with Houston should be be asking about that and why he had all those chemically injured players? Maybe he enabled Thibs to run those guys into the ground in practice? :) it continually bugs me that Thibs is looked at under a microscope my some and JVG seems to just get free pass and that's coming from someone who likes JVG. It's interesting to look back at some of the players he had on those Rockets rosters. A number of those guys are or have been coaches in some level in the NBA.
I can't remember where I saw it brought up but somebody mentioned how Hubie Brown came back out of broadcasting and did a nice job helping to turn the Grizzlies around. He was quite old and that was probably a factor in him stepping down (among other things) but JVG is plenty young enough and climbed MT Kilimanjaro so he should be good to go. :)
Only in the NBA is someone who just got fired a year ago considered a "sure thing" :) ! I've just never been a fan of the "safe" recycling of NBA coaches, so that's why I much prefer identifying a young guy who can grow with the team. I don't know about JVG, but I don't see Thibs as a Glen type of guy...I worry there would be problems. Ollie looked like a future NBA coach when he was still a player...he always seemed to have excellent leadership qualities. and you can't argue with his coaching success in the college ranks. And unlike other college coaches who have failed in the NBA, Ollie played 12 years in the NBA...his last season being 6 years ago...so he knows the NBA game. I think he's going to be a great coach in the NBA, and we'd be lucky if we get to see him work for a long time with our young guys.
To be fair, Thibodeau has a career .647 winning percentage.
Phil Jackson
Billy Cunningham
Greg Popovich
Larry Bird (3 seasons)
KC Jones
Red Auerbach
Those are the only coaches with a higher winning percentage who coached more than 2 seasons.
1. How is a guy with a .647 winning percentage LESS of a "sure thing" than a college coach who hasn't coached in the NBA?
2. Retread is a loaded word. Thibodeau has had ONE head coach gig. He was wildly successful and his removal was not necessarily the norm. Furthermore, the team took a significant step backwards without Thibodeau... and with a much ballyhooed college coach and former NBA player on the sidelines.
3. There's a very good reason why Thibodeau (and Van Gundy) is so highly regarded in NBA circles. They might not be "sure things"... but is there any such thing?
TRKO wrote:From what I've read Thibs has a great relationship with Luol Deng who would be a very good veteran addition either as a small ball 4 or a great bench player. If healthy Joakim Noah would also be a nice free agent addition. What Thibs brings that Van Gundy may not is relationships with current players. That matters when recruiting free agents.
Bullshit. Nobody was run more into the ground more than Luol Deng during Thibodeau's tenure.
And you're claiming they have a great relationship?
[Note: I apologize for the sarcasm. This has been a good discussion. But my point is that Thibodeau has his share of players who dig him, too. So if the Deng stuff is true... wouldn't that be a good thing? He's a pro's pro. Same with Garnett. How much weight do we give those relationships vs. "anonymous players" in a PR leaked by the Chicago Bulls who had just engaged in a bitter dispute with the coach?]
