Butler requests trade...

[thedoper]

If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

I'm saying you don't make a drastic change without knowing what you currently have. Kat was and still is a hopeful star. Wiggins is hopefully going to be good. When you don't have a certain in the NBA like wade, Kobe, lebron, Jordan, etc. You sit put and keep drafting high. Trade off the young guys for more picks or young potential. You don't trade for a certain thing to join an unknown thing with the idea that they will accept the additional burden of fixing issues.

Its akin to having a start up business on the trend up and then hiring someone who comes in and uproots that system.

Thibs was the wrong hire. Then his trade doubled down on it.

I think I see your point now. But what happens when those young players get sick of losing and want out? I think KAT is really good, and wouldn't want to risk that situation. I like that he was in the playoffs, and is taking some heat now. Your Sam Hinkiesque approach comes with risks too as I see it, but fair enough.

I believe in KAT. I believe in Wiggins. Just like I believed in LaVine and Dunn. And would have with our #7 pick and our two lottery picks this last draft. And likely lottery pick this year when looking at the west.

Those players come in knowing they are expected to be the answer to turn over a fail of a franchise. Then you trade their young compatriots for an established vet and sign an established vet or two. Okay, now you've convinced these 20 year olds that we are on the cusp of something. One year later that star vet wants the fuck out. So, instead of building a new foundation - you have accelerated the destruction of it. Next, your hopeful star (KAT) is looking for the nearest exit. Because what does he have to go off of as a 22 year old? Multiple vets who have said fuck this environment.

We had two options:

We either needed to keep building organically and keep our ineptitude behind closed doors until we broke through. Or we attempt to accelerate reality and trade for a star eho doesnt want to be here to give a semblance of satisfaction to our fan base while setting ourselves back 3-5 more years.

Most of you rallied behind a playoff berth because its been so long. Yay!!!! We made it!!! Was so great to witness an ass whooping!!!!

We got crushed. And lost collateral to attempt to reign when the fuckinf dream team and LeBron are at their end.

Abe questioned my familiarity with the team. Well I pose this - what's more important to you? Getting to the playoffs or actually winning in them? Cause you don't go from #7 to a contender by adding jimmy Butler.

You also never go from perpetual lottery team to contender without adding quality vets who actually play significant roles along the way. Tyus/Dunn/Lavine/Markanen/Towns/this year's lottery pick. There's not a good team in the NBA built around that much young talent getting playing time. You get to pick 3 and build around them and that's the best case scenario (see GS). And you only get to pick 3 because the money adds up as time goes on. Lavine/Wiggins/Towns is what 78+ million. Then you need to pay Tyus. Next summer would be Dunn. Then Markanen and you just can't keep that many young players on your team all needing new deals. So who are your 3 long-term in that scenario that contend with vets around them?

Zach/Wiggins/Towns - great offensive talent but no defense at all and no primary ball handler who can score and make plays for teammates

Wiggins/Markanen/Towns - worst defensive frontcourt in the NBA and no scoring and playmaking guard who can take advantage of the spacing that frontcourt provides

Tyus/Wiggins/Towns - probably the most balanced of the bunch in terms of matching team needs, but I don't think Tyus can be the 3rd best player on a contender

Dunn/Wiggins/Towns - defensive potential on the wing with bad offense because we wouldn't have a decent ball handler between those 3 and 2 of the 3 struggle to shoot jumpers

The draft pick would have likely been in the 8-14 range so that's Colin Sexton, Knox, both Bridges, SGA, Jerome Robinson, and Porter. I don't see a star in that bunch so we'd still be looking for that 3rd guy. If any of you see 1 of those guys being the 3rd keeper next to Towns and Wiggins shout them out. I don't see it.

Long-term this team needs an elite guard next to Wiggins and Towns to run the show. That's our only shot at contention in my mind and I don't see that guy on the team if we don't make the Jimmy trade so winning was the better play. The league is about ball handlers. Whether you are a guard or a wing you need an offensive guy who can create off the dribble and make plays for teammates when the defense tries to stop them. Curry, KD, Harden, CP3, Lillard, CJ, Mitchell, Russ, PG, LeBron and on and on. Neither Wiggins or Towns are that guy and there's a reason we saw such a high winning percentage when Jimmy played. He's that guy. If he's not staying that needs to be the mold of the 3rd guy we pick as the keeper next to Wiggins and Towns. That's the only path to contender no matter when you are trying to contend.

I like your thinking here. Let's get Kemba.

[TheFuture]

If you wait to see what you have with young talent you're more likely to find the answer is "not much" than game changers.

Teams don't trade top 20 talents for proven nobody's. It's a gamble for all involved or the trade would never happen.

That works in football. Or baseball. Not in basketball.

Name the last nba championship caliber team that traded for an established #1 or #2 player...

They either drafted them or signed them in FA.

The last teams using trades were Boston, LA (Shaq, and Gasol, Kobe was a trade too technically), Miami (Shaq and Bosh-yes bosh was 3 but a vital part of that team). Plenty of great teams traded for stars. San Antonio is one of the few teams to continually draft light years ahead of everyone, Golden state is right there too but the KD signing muddies the waters.

Don't forget Dallas in 2010-11. Practically the only guy on that squad NOT traded for was Dirk. Kidd, Chandler, Butler, Terry....all acquired by Dallas via trades.

Beat me to it lol I also was gonna say that pistons team that won with Chauncey traded for Rasheed Wallace

And you're all missing the biggest point. What team won big when trading for a star without already having an established one? Pistons are an outlier - no true star just a great fit all around. Miami had wade and a committed LeBron. LA had Kobe. Dallas had Dirk. Boston had Pierce.

We jumped the gun. Rationalize all you want, but its the truth. The trade never should have happened.

You asked to list teams that traded for their 1 or 2. 6 teams were listed.

To your point I think that your saying that KAT isn't a star yet so we should have waited to see if we could draft or develop someone better than KAT? Fair point. But none of Markanen, Lavine or Dunn is going to be anywhere near KAT so the trade is still ok unless your saying that we would have been better off losing and getting another draft pick who may be better than KAT?

I'm saying you don't make a drastic change without knowing what you currently have. Kat was and still is a hopeful star. Wiggins is hopefully going to be good. When you don't have a certain in the NBA like wade, Kobe, lebron, Jordan, etc. You sit put and keep drafting high. Trade off the young guys for more picks or young potential. You don't trade for a certain thing to join an unknown thing with the idea that they will accept the additional burden of fixing issues.

Its akin to having a start up business on the trend up and then hiring someone who comes in and uproots that system.

Thibs was the wrong hire. Then his trade doubled down on it.

I think I see your point now. But what happens when those young players get sick of losing and want out? I think KAT is really good, and wouldn't want to risk that situation. I like that he was in the playoffs, and is taking some heat now. Your Sam Hinkiesque approach comes with risks too as I see it, but fair enough.

I believe in KAT. I believe in Wiggins. Just like I believed in LaVine and Dunn. And would have with our #7 pick and our two lottery picks this last draft. And likely lottery pick this year when looking at the west.

Those players come in knowing they are expected to be the answer to turn over a fail of a franchise. Then you trade their young compatriots for an established vet and sign an established vet or two. Okay, now you've convinced these 20 year olds that we are on the cusp of something. One year later that star vet wants the fuck out. So, instead of building a new foundation - you have accelerated the destruction of it. Next, your hopeful star (KAT) is looking for the nearest exit. Because what does he have to go off of as a 22 year old? Multiple vets who have said fuck this environment.

We had two options:

We either needed to keep building organically and keep our ineptitude behind closed doors until we broke through. Or we attempt to accelerate reality and trade for a star eho doesnt want to be here to give a semblance of satisfaction to our fan base while setting ourselves back 3-5 more years.

Most of you rallied behind a playoff berth because its been so long. Yay!!!! We made it!!! Was so great to witness an ass whooping!!!!

We got crushed. And lost collateral to attempt to reign when the fuckinf dream team and LeBron are at their end.

Abe questioned my familiarity with the team. Well I pose this - what's more important to you? Getting to the playoffs or actually winning in them? Cause you don't go from #7 to a contender by adding jimmy Butler.

You also never go from perpetual lottery team to contender without adding quality vets who actually play significant roles along the way. Tyus/Dunn/Lavine/Markanen/Towns/this year's lottery pick. There's not a good team in the NBA built around that much young talent getting playing time. You get to pick 3 and build around them and that's the best case scenario (see GS). And you only get to pick 3 because the money adds up as time goes on. Lavine/Wiggins/Towns is what 78+ million. Then you need to pay Tyus. Next summer would be Dunn. Then Markanen and you just can't keep that many young players on your team all needing new deals. So who are your 3 long-term in that scenario that contend with vets around them?

Zach/Wiggins/Towns - great offensive talent but no defense at all and no primary ball handler who can score and make plays for teammates

Wiggins/Markanen/Towns - worst defensive frontcourt in the NBA and no scoring and playmaking guard who can take advantage of the spacing that frontcourt provides

Tyus/Wiggins/Towns - probably the most balanced of the bunch in terms of matching team needs, but I don't think Tyus can be the 3rd best player on a contender

Dunn/Wiggins/Towns - defensive potential on the wing with bad offense because we wouldn't have a decent ball handler between those 3 and 2 of the 3 struggle to shoot jumpers

The draft pick would have likely been in the 8-14 range so that's Colin Sexton, Knox, both Bridges, SGA, Jerome Robinson, and Porter. I don't see a star in that bunch so we'd still be looking for that 3rd guy. If any of you see 1 of those guys being the 3rd keeper next to Towns and Wiggins shout them out. I don't see it.

Long-term this team needs an elite guard next to Wiggins and Towns to run the show. That's our only shot at contention in my mind and I don't see that guy on the team if we don't make the Jimmy trade so winning was the better play. The league is about ball handlers. Whether you are a guard or a wing you need an offensive guy who can create off the dribble and make plays for teammates when the defense tries to stop them. Curry, KD, Harden, CP3, Lillard, CJ, Mitchell, Russ, PG, LeBron and on and on. Neither Wiggins or Towns are that guy and there's a reason we saw such a high winning percentage when Jimmy played. He's that guy. If he's not staying that needs to be the mold of the 3rd guy we pick as the keeper next to Wiggins and Towns. That's the only path to contender no matter when you are trying to contend.

No subpar team adds stars through trades and goes on to win!!!

I agree that some of our talent wasn't great. But the trade was the wrong move foresight and hindsight.

But now we are headed back to the same direction! Without our #4 pick,#13 pick, #7 pick, and two lottery picks this year ( Knox, sexton, bridges, etc.)

Argue the previous picks werent right, but Thibs himself traded away his #4 pick after one year.

Glen Is going nowhere - Thibs has to go. And we all should be knocking on his door.

[TheFuture]

Dunn and LaVine will explode this year. Quote me.

[TAFKASP]

Dunn and LaVine will explode this year. Quote me.

If by explode you mean literally explode, leaving a bloody mess everywhere, then I suppose it's possible. If on the other hand you mean they're going to become serviceable NBA starters, not so much.

:D

[Monster]

Ending up with a championship level team requires talent and luck and something that doesn't get discussed often enough is players exceeding expectations for their careers. Championship teams tend to have one guy that vastly exceeds expectations. The Spurs have legacy players that did that. They had high level role players like Bruce Bowen and Danny green that other teams let go. The warriors are who they are without Draymond green being a legit part of their core. Heck Even super talented guys have to hit a good case scenario. The comp for Steph Curry was Steve Nash. He has acheieved that and achieved more than anyone likely expected for him.

What the heck does this have to do with the Wolves?

Towns has to become a top 5 or whatever player. That's certainly possible yet. He is 22 and one of the best offensive players in the game. Harden even as good as he was when he went to Houston didn't become and MVP type guy for a few years. Towns can still get there. He is a #1 overall pick in a talented draft but he still has to get to that elite level.

Wiggins....former #1overall pick you would expect by now he would be a legit All-star player or if he hasn't made it a top snub. He just isn't there. That's a problem.

Lavine looked to be on his way to be a guy that was going to possibly a nice player for where he was picked. Injury derailed his career and there are some other whispers. There are so many smart basketball people that do not believe in his talent. There should be some question about where his career goes and that's coming from someone that's still a fan and believes in his talent.

Belly outperformed his draft spot. He was still inconsistent.

Tyus shows potential to be a nice player maybe even a starting PG.

This team needs to find a high level player from a draft pick smart dining or whatnot. That was likely the case even if we stayed the course with the young guys. Now with Butler likely moving on they need to hit on another player AND have Wiggins become a legit all-star level talent. I still say no matter what road this te took there would be plenty of questions about the direction of the team. This Butler Thibs situation is pretty bad though but again we aren't going to get nothing for Butler.

[TAFKASP]

Harden was still a large chance at the time. Look at the return.

Paul was a situation like we are in now. He forced it.

Nobody knew Harden would be an MVP type, but there was no question that Harden was an All-Star talent. Paul is like Butler is like Love, an established player available for young potential. That they each effectively forced their teams hand doesn't change that.

LaVine is a starter in today's league that wants spacers and a 5 that defends and rebounds.

Dunn will be a starter because he can lock down either guard spot and showed some offensive game.

I stand by my opinion that LaVine is best suited to a 6th man, instant offense role. Dunn will be a starter because they don't have anyone better.

Dunn/LaVine/Wiggins/Markannen/KAT give me that.

If we're going that type of route then give me Rubio/Lavine/Wig/Mark/KAT. They'd be abysmal on defense, but capable of out scoring most teams, most nights. No point in taking Dunn over Rubio, both lack shooting, Rubio at least runs an offense reliably, and playing with the other 4 who cares about defense?

I'll catch heat for this I'm sure, but our biggest issue is that we have our team tied up to a 5 who needs the ball and cannot or will not play defense. I wouldn't trade KAT right now unless it was a truck of stars, but if he will not commit on defense then that will change. His value in this league will plummet.

While I'm not ready to give up on KAT, I think you're kinda making my point. If the team doesn't see a future in which KAT is a defensive anchor, or at least a reasonable semblance of one, then you have to ask when is the best time to move on. Wait too long and your return plummets, move to early and maybe get proven wrong, but still get a good return.

Not sure what you meant by your top 20 for 20 trade??

Yeah, equal talent doesn't get traded. And teams that aren't competitive don't trade for top talent until they are ready. Prove to me where someone traded for a top 20 talent while being a bottom feeder and went on to do anything special.

I still say Harden at the time of his trade was close to top 20, maybe even solidly in the top 20.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

"No subpar team adds stars through trades and goes on to win!!!"

Clippers were perennial losers before trading for Chris Paul. Sacramento traded for Chris Webber. New Jersey Nets added Kidd and then went to the FInals for a couple of years. There are other examples.

Oh....and the Wolves added Jimmy Butler and made the playoffs for the first time in over a decade!!! Short lived perhaps, but something to hang onto.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Kat just bought a house in medina. The signature on that max. deal cant be far behind.

Wiggs and kat both bought huge houses, but i bet they spend most of their time in their rooms gaming with each other.

[KiwiMatt]

My biggest concern about this situation is the fact Thibs is trying to save his own ass by trying to win now at potentially the expense of our short and long term future. If (when) we move Butler we need to get assets back. Trading him for a stop gap player and cap space will be a fail.

The next couple of months will be the true test for both Thibs the GM and Thibs the coach.

I don't want us to go full rebuild mode, but I want us to surround KAT and Wiggins with similar aged players with potential. Wait for GSW and Houston to hit the decline then be ready to compete while Towns and (hopefully) Wiggins hit their prime.

[TheFuture]

"No subpar team adds stars through trades and goes on to win!!!"

Clippers were perennial losers before trading for Chris Paul. Sacramento traded for Chris Webber. New Jersey Nets added Kidd and then went to the FInals for a couple of years. There are other examples.

Oh....and the Wolves added Jimmy Butler and made the playoffs for the first time in over a decade!!! Short lived perhaps, but something to hang onto.

And what happened on all of those teams?

They actually kept them and never actually won. All middling.

Argue with me all you want.

We screwed up and everyone knows it.