60WinTim wrote:My Porkchop levels have been very low in the past. But as I see more and more of our offense run through our Big 3, and Rubio's shot continue to flounder, and Dunn's defense outshine Rubio, my Porkchop levels have been rising.
One thing I like about this board is that in the face of painful disappointment this year, we can all still have fun with a thread like this. Good stuff guys.
Well, when Pork (and others) was making his claims in previous years, he wasn't right. Rubio's on-floor impact was a big positive for this team and damn near every metric pegged him as a top-15 point guard in the NBA despite his obvious flaws. The only thing that's changed this year is Rubio's play. He has not facilitated like he has in the past, his defense hasn't been as good or good at all, his ability to get to the FT line is down, and all the other little aspects that made him worthwhile just haven't been there so far this season. And as a result, that's altered our perception of him. When he isn't doing the things that he does well at an elite level -- like he's done for years -- his value takes a big hit because his flaws at that point do start to weigh heavily against him.
Can we win with last year's version of Rubio? I still say yes. Does that mean that I'm opposed to making a change at the position? No. And I do think he's been better as of late.
Ricky's joy has been gone for years now. That's not on Thibs. Thibs using Ricky less is the smart decision because you can't be successful with a non-scoring primary ball handler which is pretty obvious given our team success since Ricky has been here. I don't know how that can be argued at this point. We've looked like a playoff team once since he's been here. I've been full pork chop for a few years now seeing over and over again that it's not Ricky it's everyone else. Everyone else has to step up for us to win games. Well, everyone else has stepped up this year and we aren't winning games. Every game thread is what could the big 3 have done more when they usually put up 50 pts, 15 boards and 8-10 assists while Dieng has been solid as well most of the year. Well it's time to put it on Ricky. He's not stepping up when everyone else is to help us win games. Ricky's not the leader this team needs because you can't lead a team you can't be a major factor in winning for. It's just time to move on either now, at the break or after the season.
longstrangetrip wrote:Fun thread and Pork is one of my favorite guys on here, but sorry...he was not right about Ricky prior to this year. Until his collapse this year, he was the straw that stirred the drink for this team throughout his career, and had the peripheral numbers to support this assertion. We all are aware of his excellent on/off numbers prior to this year, as well as his raw assist, rebounds and steals number. Further, somebody here (I can't remember who) posted earlier this week a really interesting defensive performance graph from last season that had Ricky ranked up with the Tony Allens of the league (this graph deserved more discussion by the way...whoever posted it, please repost).
But while Pork has not been right for several seasons, Ricky has become what Pork used to say he was...and as a result this board fairly has turned against Ricky. We don't know why Ricky's performance is so much worse this year, but I have two theories. I know that Wolves' ownership is convinced that his elbow is really bothering him still and is hampering his performance. I'll take their word that the elbow is a factor, but I also think Thibs has a lot to do with his decline. Thibs' controlling style that Lip's Chicago friend has told him about is exactly the wrong way to coach Ricky, and seems to have sucked all the joy and effectiveness out of his game. It's the main reason that I've taken a pass on watching the past three games...Thibs has taken the joy out of the Wolves for me too, for the first time in franchise history. I know it's only 19 games, but I'm more and more convinced of one thing....hiring Thibodeau was a disastrous move.
LST, I totally get the bold quoted piece above. The issue is that Rubio...even in a solid year, should be our 5th best starter. You simply don't guide the strategy of your team off one of your bottom end starters. This team belongs to KAT, Wig and Lavine....like it or not. Rubio is a smallish piece to this teams future. He needs to find a way to fit in and succeed, not be built around.
khans2k5 wrote:Ricky's joy has been gone for years now. That's not on Thibs. Thibs using Ricky less is the smart decision because you can't be successful with a non-scoring primary ball handler which is pretty obvious given our team success since Ricky has been here. I don't know how that can be argued at this point. We've looked like a playoff team once since he's been here. I've been full pork chop for a few years now seeing over and over again that it's not Ricky it's everyone else. Everyone else has to step up for us to win games. Well, everyone else has stepped up this year and we aren't winning games. Every game thread is what could the big 3 have done more when they usually put up 50 pts, 15 boards and 8-10 assists while Dieng has been solid as well most of the year. Well it's time to put it on Ricky. He's not stepping up when everyone else is to help us win games. Ricky's not the leader this team needs because you can't lead a team you can't be a major factor in winning for. It's just time to move on either now, at the break or after the season.
While I agree that Ricky has not played well this year and made the impact he has in years' past, the idea that everyone else is stepping up but he's failing us is flat out wrong.
longstrangetrip wrote:Fun thread and Pork is one of my favorite guys on here, but sorry...he was not right about Ricky prior to this year. Until his collapse this year, he was the straw that stirred the drink for this team throughout his career, and had the peripheral numbers to support this assertion. We all are aware of his excellent on/off numbers prior to this year, as well as his raw assist, rebounds and steals number. Further, somebody here (I can't remember who) posted earlier this week a really interesting defensive performance graph from last season that had Ricky ranked up with the Tony Allens of the league (this graph deserved more discussion by the way...whoever posted it, please repost).
But while Pork has not been right for several seasons, Ricky has become what Pork used to say he was...and as a result this board fairly has turned against Ricky. We don't know why Ricky's performance is so much worse this year, but I have two theories. I know that Wolves' ownership is convinced that his elbow is really bothering him still and is hampering his performance. I'll take their word that the elbow is a factor, but I also think Thibs has a lot to do with his decline. Thibs' controlling style that Lip's Chicago friend has told him about is exactly the wrong way to coach Ricky, and seems to have sucked all the joy and effectiveness out of his game. It's the main reason that I've taken a pass on watching the past three games...Thibs has taken the joy out of the Wolves for me too, for the first time in franchise history. I know it's only 19 games, but I'm more and more convinced of one thing....hiring Thibodeau was a disastrous move.
LST, I totally get the bold quoted piece above. The issue is that Rubio...even in a solid year, should be our 5th best starter. You simply don't guide the strategy of your team off one of your bottom end starters. This team belongs to KAT, Wig and Lavine....like it or not. Rubio is a smallish piece to this teams future. He needs to find a way to fit in and succeed, not be built around.
Agree and disagree. The problem with running everything through KAT, Wiggins, and LaVine is that these guys aren't nearly as adept at getting others open looks. One could argue these three need Ricky as much as he needs them. They like to score and have a tendency of getting tunnel vision, while he loves to pass and would love nothing more than to dish assists. Last night I noticed that Thibs ran a lot more high pick and roll with Ricky. Unsurprisingly, it led to open shot after open shot, usually for Dieng or KAT. They didn't make them all, but they had a lot of good opportunities.
Where I agree with you is that over the long run, it may not be a bad thing for these guys to figure out how to make plays, run PnR, etc. in order to accelerate their development as something other than just scorers.
I think part of it is Ricky wants to win...bad. He is not interested in the fun or fanfare although he clearly still has some flair to his game because that's such a part of him. This isn't a post to say Ricky awesome and that he is a winner but that's part of why i think he doesn't always play with the Joy we have seen him play with in the past.
