CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

One other random thought from watching the game last night: Wiggins and Lebron together for the next 4-5 years before Lebron starts to decline would have been scary on both ends of the court. We all know Kevin Love is no slouch, but if Cleveland doesn't win the title this year, I think that trade will officially look like a huge mistake. I still don't blame them for the trade and feel it was right at the time, but hindsight is always 20/20.

Thank God Lebron and Love found each other though, because we snatched up Wiggs and he's already looking awesome at 20. I do not miss Kevin Love at all.

Already we have seen less arms in the air after missed calls and walking back to play D.

Yeah, Kevin will never see the offensive numbers he saw in Minnesota...he's only shooting 41% and 32% on threes this year. And I see that Blatt is benching him again at crunch time due to his terrible defense. I don't know if any of you watched the Cavs/Bucks game, but Kidd went at Love every time he was in the game...it was actually kind of sad. Blatt had no choice but to get him out of there.

Yes, thank you, thank you LeBron for forcing that trade!

[AbeVigodaLive]

https://vine.co/v/iuKrz606LK5

This is one of many things I didn't like. I feel bad for Garnett on this one but at least he got back up.

That looks BAAAAADD. Garnett's slow fall to the floor almost seems like a metaphor for his game at this point (at least offensively).

[thedoper]

https://vine.co/v/iuKrz606LK5

This is one of many things I didn't like. I feel bad for Garnett on this one but at least he got back up.

That looks BAAAAADD. Garnett's slow fall to the floor almost seems like a metaphor for his game at this point (at least offensively).

He was mentoring the floor.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I agree with most of what's been said here, and I'm very pleased with a win after starting the game so poorly, but I'll be the bad news bear of this thread...

Gorgui Dieng was terrible last night and has been the entire start to this season. He's still bad defensively, but he's also not making shots. Went 2-8 last night from the field with plenty of "WTF" plays. I can remember one in particular that upset me. Gorgui sealed Whiteside down low under the rim, Payne made a nice post entry pass to him. Instead of just rising up for the layup or two-handed dunk, Gorgui somehow managed to take that ugly Dirk fall-away shot from a step inside the free throw line. He took what was an easy look and made it really tough. Oh, did I mention Whiteside recovered and blocked the shot? I'm very displeased with Dieng this year. He's just not helping anything with that second unit. Payne might be creeping into his playing time if it doesn't change...

Or Pek may return! :)

I agree with both of you guys. Gorgui looks lost out there at times on both ends of the court...disappointing after his excellent preseason. I'm willing to cut him a little slack last night because Whiteside is such a tough matchup...kudos to KAT for going 14 and 14 against that beast.

I'm the afterglow of a big win, let me provide a more positive spin though. While his defense has been lacking, Gorgui's scoring and rebounding have been just fine...12 points and 9 rebounds per 36 on 48.3% shooting. Not bad for 18 minutes backing up KAT, if only he could defend smarter. But the other silver lining...Pek is due back in just a few weeks. I know it's a stretch, but if Pek is healthy enough to be Pek, we all of a sudden have the best backup center in the league.

But if Pek can't play and G continues to struggle on the defensive side, Plan C becomes Payne. I think we all prefer Adreian being our PF depth to be called on when there are injuries or off-nights like Belly had last night, but he is long and tough enough to give us 15 minutes at center if absolutely needed.

I look at it this way. Dieng has not played great. Even I (a Big fan of Dieng) can concede that point. That said, even not playing great, he's still carrying a PER of 12.5 which is better than Bjelica's 11.8. Not to say PER is the end all - it's not. But it does provide one measure of perspective. If this is his "bottom" then that's not really horrible is it? Dieng has a long enough track record at this point that I'm not at all worried about him. He'll be fine. This early in the season, one big game can make a huge swing in a guy's metrics. He's due.

The problem Carlos is that you focus only on his box score metrics. His defense has been awful and that's a big deal with a Center, where plus or minus defense has a larger impact on team effectiveness than, say, a wing.

[Monster]

I agree with most of what's been said here, and I'm very pleased with a win after starting the game so poorly, but I'll be the bad news bear of this thread...

Gorgui Dieng was terrible last night and has been the entire start to this season. He's still bad defensively, but he's also not making shots. Went 2-8 last night from the field with plenty of "WTF" plays. I can remember one in particular that upset me. Gorgui sealed Whiteside down low under the rim, Payne made a nice post entry pass to him. Instead of just rising up for the layup or two-handed dunk, Gorgui somehow managed to take that ugly Dirk fall-away shot from a step inside the free throw line. He took what was an easy look and made it really tough. Oh, did I mention Whiteside recovered and blocked the shot? I'm very displeased with Dieng this year. He's just not helping anything with that second unit. Payne might be creeping into his playing time if it doesn't change...

Or Pek may return! :)

I agree with both of you guys. Gorgui looks lost out there at times on both ends of the court...disappointing after his excellent preseason. I'm willing to cut him a little slack last night because Whiteside is such a tough matchup...kudos to KAT for going 14 and 14 against that beast.

I'm the afterglow of a big win, let me provide a more positive spin though. While his defense has been lacking, Gorgui's scoring and rebounding have been just fine...12 points and 9 rebounds per 36 on 48.3% shooting. Not bad for 18 minutes backing up KAT, if only he could defend smarter. But the other silver lining...Pek is due back in just a few weeks. I know it's a stretch, but if Pek is healthy enough to be Pek, we all of a sudden have the best backup center in the league.

But if Pek can't play and G continues to struggle on the defensive side, Plan C becomes Payne. I think we all prefer Adreian being our PF depth to be called on when there are injuries or off-nights like Belly had last night, but he is long and tough enough to give us 15 minutes at center if absolutely needed.

I look at it this way. Dieng has not played great. Even I (a Big fan of Dieng) can concede that point. That said, even not playing great, he's still carrying a PER of 12.5 which is better than Bjelica's 11.8. Not to say PER is the end all - it's not. But it does provide one measure of perspective. If this is his "bottom" then that's not really horrible is it? Dieng has a long enough track record at this point that I'm not at all worried about him. He'll be fine. This early in the season, one big game can make a huge swing in a guy's metrics. He's due.

The problem Carlos is that you focus only on his box score metrics. His defense has been awful and that's a big deal with a Center, where plus or minus defense has a larger impact on team effectiveness than, say, a wing.

Is anyone up for comparing Dieng's defense via stats to other backup centers? I think understandably we maybe expect too much from Dieng and it makes us a little too frustrated maybe a little unfairly.

1. We had some sort of expectations he might be the answer at C or PF. He certainly looked good that stretch his rookie year. Because we look at him as at least a fringe starter type maybe we expect more than we should.

2. Towns makes him look terrible because Towns has been so damn fantastic.

3. We look into the future thinking there is no way we can keep a guy like him who is just good enough to get paid but maybe not worth us keeping him so part of us has already moved on resigned to this fact and only care if another team values him in a trade.

A couple more thoughts on Dieng

1. He has a long reach but combined with his lack of bulk he is a little bit undersized (height) as a center.

2. This applies to Bazz also but he has played for 3 different coaches 3 somewhat different systems on both ends of the floor. Coming out of college he seemed like a smart guy that played in a system well and was very calm and controlled. 3 years into the league he hasn't had that system to play in really. Offensively it's possibly not been that different but defensively I bet it's be a lot different from each coach.

3. A couple things jump out at me looking at his per 36 numbers this year compared to other years. His blocks are way down. That's a sign he is putting forth effort into staying down and by my eyes that's the case. He is staying down a lot more. If he does learn to do that more the blocks will come back. His FT% is absurd for a guy his size. The Wolves have some ridiculous FT% shooters and it extends to bigs also.

I think we need to relax a bit on Dieng and have more realistic expectations. I do think there is absolutely reason to have some frustration about him at times but getting guys with his size and skill that put forth the type of effort he does is not easy to find. I am looking forward to seeing how things play out with him.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Except from what I've actually seen, and maybe others have to, is that he's still leaving his feet often. His blocks are down because he's just not getting the same rate of them. He just hasn't played well.

[Carlos Danger]

The problem Carlos is that you focus only on his box score metrics. His defense has been awful and that's a big deal with a Center, where plus or minus defense has a larger impact on team effectiveness than, say, a wing.

Well yes - I do believe box score metrics are important. On a per 36 Dieng is giving us 12 pts/10 rebounds. And that's him playing "terrible". But to your point, I guess if we ignore: Points, Rebounds, Blocks, and Assists, then perhaps it paints a different picture. Because none of things matter - right?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

The problem Carlos is that you focus only on his box score metrics. His defense has been awful and that's a big deal with a Center, where plus or minus defense has a larger impact on team effectiveness than, say, a wing.

Well yes - I do believe box score metrics are important. On a per 36 Dieng is giving us 12 pts/10 rebounds. And that's him playing "terrible". But to your point, I guess if we ignore: Points, Rebounds, Blocks, and Assists, then perhaps it paints a different picture. Because none of things matter - right?

No need to get sarcastic. I'm not saying those other things don't matter and I'm not saying he's a terrible player. When evaluating a player's overall contribution, you can't just look at things based off of the box score. Hell, Rubio is in the same situation but with a different conclusion. If all people looked at over Ricky's career was win shares or PER, they would grossly underestimate his impact on a game.

[Carlos Danger]

The problem Carlos is that you focus only on his box score metrics. His defense has been awful and that's a big deal with a Center, where plus or minus defense has a larger impact on team effectiveness than, say, a wing.

Well yes - I do believe box score metrics are important. On a per 36 Dieng is giving us 12 pts/10 rebounds. And that's him playing "terrible". But to your point, I guess if we ignore: Points, Rebounds, Blocks, and Assists, then perhaps it paints a different picture. Because none of things matter - right?

No need to get sarcastic. I'm not saying those other things don't matter and I'm not saying he's a terrible player. When evaluating a player's overall contribution, you can't just look at things based off of the box score. Hell, Rubio is in the same situation but with a different conclusion. If all people looked at over Ricky's career was win shares or PER, they would grossly underestimate his impact on a game.

I apologize for being sarcastic. But we do this all the time. Of course you can't just look at a box score when evaluating a player. But by the same token, you can't define a player's overall contribution by one segment of his game either - right? I mean, that's why they invented Advanced Metrics i.e. PER, Win Shares and VORP. Most players have strengths and weaknesses. Those metrics are an attempt to summarize their play as a whole. You bring up Rubio as an example. He's playing well this year and his PER, Win Shares and VORP all reflect that.

I get that you don't like Dieng. I'm not going to change your mind on that. But I can't help but chime in when I feel the bashing starts to go a little too far. He hasn't been at his best so far this year. That's fair to say. But he certainly hasn't held this team back. And last year - he led the team in Win Shares, so the larger sample of data tells me he'll probably play better as the year progresses.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

The problem Carlos is that you focus only on his box score metrics. His defense has been awful and that's a big deal with a Center, where plus or minus defense has a larger impact on team effectiveness than, say, a wing.

Well yes - I do believe box score metrics are important. On a per 36 Dieng is giving us 12 pts/10 rebounds. And that's him playing "terrible". But to your point, I guess if we ignore: Points, Rebounds, Blocks, and Assists, then perhaps it paints a different picture. Because none of things matter - right?

No need to get sarcastic. I'm not saying those other things don't matter and I'm not saying he's a terrible player. When evaluating a player's overall contribution, you can't just look at things based off of the box score. Hell, Rubio is in the same situation but with a different conclusion. If all people looked at over Ricky's career was win shares or PER, they would grossly underestimate his impact on a game.

I apologize for being sarcastic. But we do this all the time. Of course you can't just look at a box score when evaluating a player. But by the same token, you can't define a player's overall contribution by one segment of his game either - right? I mean, that's why they invented Advanced Metrics i.e. PER, Win Shares and VORP. Most players have strengths and weaknesses. Those metrics are an attempt to summarize their play as a whole. You bring up Rubio as an example. He's playing well this year and his PER, Win Shares and VORP all reflect that.

I get that you don't like Dieng. I'm not going to change your mind on that. But I can't help but chime in when I feel the bashing starts to go a little too far. He hasn't been at his best so far this year. That's fair to say. But he certainly hasn't held this team back. And last year - he led the team in Win Shares, so the larger sample of data tells me he'll probably play better as the year progresses.

What I have said a bunch of times is that I don't like Dieng's fit on this team because of his defensive deficiencies. I haven't said he's a terrible overall player. I haven't said lets trade him for peanuts. I haven't said he's the worst player in the world, so don't exaggerate a narrative by me that doesn't exist. I absolutely have recognized the strides he's made offensively. But I don't think that's what we need from our backup Center.