have fans overvalued the talent of...

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Very good point Hockey. If anything, fans overvalue the impact of rookies and 2nd year players. Even Wiggins had a miserable start, going 20+ games before hitting his stride. And even now, he still has a "meh" performance on a regular basis. LaVine, Bennett, and Payne have all been more bad than good. Dieng and Shabazz have made strides offensively, but both are very poor defenders.

The fact of the matter is that other than post game 25 Wiggins, our vets have been saddled with a bunch of players who simply aren't good.....yet. Hopefully they will improve and get better, but that's no guarantee either, as we have seen countless of young players cycle through this franchise over the years that end up never improving.

We have to keep this in mind with our lottery pick this year. That player probably won't be making a big impact for us until year 2 or 3, and will perhaps be more of a liability on the court in Year 1.

Sorta related, no NBA team with its best player shooting less than 38% has been good in about 60 years. Rubio is still a more effective player on the court than Wiggins. I think we all realize that should change once Wiggins develops a bit more.

Until then, however, the Wolves will remain a bad team. Whether they ever become "good" depends on the development of Wiggins specifically... and a few auxiliary players. And, the luck of the ping pong balls.

I dunno I disagree with the Rubio over Wiggins comment. Wiggins is our best defender, and has done a great job on some of the top players in the league. He's also our best scorer. Only thing Rubio has over him is passing.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Pork, Mikkeman (and me to a lesser degree) have written exhaustive posts detailing how the team consistently plays better when Rubio is on the court versus sitting on the bench. The "Rubio Effect" is significant.

That being said, I don't think anyone here believes that the trio of Rubio, Martin, and Pekovic are the franchise cornerstones. I think most of us believe it's likely Rubio, Wiggins, and one or two players yet to be determined - they may not even be on the roster yet. Martin and Pekovic are here as a bridge to keep us competitive as we hopefully identify and develop young talent. Of course that bridge sort of collapsed as all three of these guys went down early in the season.....

Biggest peeve about Rubio right here. The "Rubio effect". Your just comparing him to his backups. Of course Rubio is going to have a bigger impact then JJ Barea, who was one the worst players in the league last year. Of course he's better then a 19 year old rookie whose never played point guard before.

The "Rubio effect" is just comparing him to his backups, not other point guards.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Very good point Hockey. If anything, fans overvalue the impact of rookies and 2nd year players. Even Wiggins had a miserable start, going 20+ games before hitting his stride. And even now, he still has a "meh" performance on a regular basis. LaVine, Bennett, and Payne have all been more bad than good. Dieng and Shabazz have made strides offensively, but both are very poor defenders.

The fact of the matter is that other than post game 25 Wiggins, our vets have been saddled with a bunch of players who simply aren't good.....yet. Hopefully they will improve and get better, but that's no guarantee either, as we have seen countless of young players cycle through this franchise over the years that end up never improving.

We have to keep this in mind with our lottery pick this year. That player probably won't be making a big impact for us until year 2 or 3, and will perhaps be more of a liability on the court in Year 1.

Sorta related, no NBA team with its best player shooting less than 38% has been good in about 60 years. Rubio is still a more effective player on the court than Wiggins. I think we all realize that should change once Wiggins develops a bit more.

Until then, however, the Wolves will remain a bad team. Whether they ever become "good" depends on the development of Wiggins specifically... and a few auxiliary players. And, the luck of the ping pong balls.

I dunno I disagree with the Rubio over Wiggins comment. Wiggins is our best defender, and has done a great job on some of the top players in the league. He's also our best scorer. Only thing Rubio has over him is passing.

I think Rubio has a more profound effect since he's been back. Wiggins has disappeared a bit... He's still so young. Rubio has done pretty well on defense. Good and questionable moments... Just like Wiggins. Small quibble.

In any event, the Wolves need Wiggins to be the clearcut #1 guy... And the Wolves will remain a 60 loss team if the best player is a 36% shooter or 15/5 guy.

[Coolbreeze44]

Very good point Hockey. If anything, fans overvalue the impact of rookies and 2nd year players. Even Wiggins had a miserable start, going 20+ games before hitting his stride. And even now, he still has a "meh" performance on a regular basis. LaVine, Bennett, and Payne have all been more bad than good. Dieng and Shabazz have made strides offensively, but both are very poor defenders.

The fact of the matter is that other than post game 25 Wiggins, our vets have been saddled with a bunch of players who simply aren't good.....yet. Hopefully they will improve and get better, but that's no guarantee either, as we have seen countless of young players cycle through this franchise over the years that end up never improving.

We have to keep this in mind with our lottery pick this year. That player probably won't be making a big impact for us until year 2 or 3, and will perhaps be more of a liability on the court in Year 1.

This is true. And yet I guarantee you will be on here telling us during the first few months how bad he is/has been and doubting his future impact. Can't believe you have taken a couple of average recent games by Wiggins and now we are to believe he is having "meh" games on a regular basis. Just stop.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Very good point Hockey. If anything, fans overvalue the impact of rookies and 2nd year players. Even Wiggins had a miserable start, going 20+ games before hitting his stride. And even now, he still has a "meh" performance on a regular basis. LaVine, Bennett, and Payne have all been more bad than good. Dieng and Shabazz have made strides offensively, but both are very poor defenders.

The fact of the matter is that other than post game 25 Wiggins, our vets have been saddled with a bunch of players who simply aren't good.....yet. Hopefully they will improve and get better, but that's no guarantee either, as we have seen countless of young players cycle through this franchise over the years that end up never improving.

We have to keep this in mind with our lottery pick this year. That player probably won't be making a big impact for us until year 2 or 3, and will perhaps be more of a liability on the court in Year 1.

This is true. And yet I guarantee you will be on here telling us during the first few months how bad he is/has been and doubting his future impact. Can't believe you have taken a couple of average recent games by Wiggins and now we are to believe he is having "meh" games on a regular basis. Just stop.

Yup, if someone is struggling and not playing well, I will point it out. That doesn't mean I think they will never be good. As for Wiggins' "meh" games, my point is that he isn't exactly been dominating games, but I still think he's important to our future. Don't be so sensitive about your young pups.

[Lipoli390]

I never thought of Martin and Pek as cornerstones. Is there anyone who did?? Ricky has been generally regarded as a cornerstone by both Wolves management/Flip and fans. But one cornerstone won't get it done, especially when that one cornerstone is a pass-first PG. Ricky passes, runs the offense, defends and rebounds at an elite level for an NBA PG. But he's not a scorer and never will be.

The Wolves may have another cornerstone, one who can score, in Wiggins. But we'll have to wait another year or two before we'll know for sure. A third cornerstone doesn't exist yet on this team unless LaVine takes it to another level next season -- something I consider possible.

Bottom line is this. We don't have three cornerstones. We have one. And he's not a scorer.
Wiggins has shown lots of promise and LaVine has loads of potential that he's teased us with a couple games this season. Not knowing for sure what Wiggins will become and with uncertainty surrounding LaVine, the Wolves need to use this year's 1st round pick to draft another potential cornerstone player. Martins is must a one way role player and I think we've all known that. Pek's days with the Wolves and perhaps in the League are numbered.

[Coolbreeze44]

Very good point Hockey. If anything, fans overvalue the impact of rookies and 2nd year players. Even Wiggins had a miserable start, going 20+ games before hitting his stride. And even now, he still has a "meh" performance on a regular basis. LaVine, Bennett, and Payne have all been more bad than good. Dieng and Shabazz have made strides offensively, but both are very poor defenders.

The fact of the matter is that other than post game 25 Wiggins, our vets have been saddled with a bunch of players who simply aren't good.....yet. Hopefully they will improve and get better, but that's no guarantee either, as we have seen countless of young players cycle through this franchise over the years that end up never improving.

We have to keep this in mind with our lottery pick this year. That player probably won't be making a big impact for us until year 2 or 3, and will perhaps be more of a liability on the court in Year 1.

This is true. And yet I guarantee you will be on here telling us during the first few months how bad he is/has been and doubting his future impact. Can't believe you have taken a couple of average recent games by Wiggins and now we are to believe he is having "meh" games on a regular basis. Just stop.

Yup, if someone is struggling and not playing well, I will point it out. That doesn't mean I think they will never be good. As for Wiggins' "meh" games, my point is that he isn't exactly been dominating games, but I still think he's important to our future. Don't be so sensitive about your young pups.

Don't mind you pointing out things as you see it, but I would like you to be accurate when you do. You seem to post over a specific agenda.

[TheFuture]

I never thought of Martin and Pek as cornerstones. Is there anyone who did?? Ricky has been generally regarded as a cornerstone by both Wolves management/Flip and fans. But one cornerstone won't get it done, especially when that one cornerstone is a pass-first PG. Ricky passes, runs the offense, defends and rebounds at an elite level for an NBA PG. But he's not a scorer and never will be.

The Wolves may have another cornerstone, one who ca score, in Wiggins. But we'll have to wait another year or two before we'll know for sure. A third cornerstone doesn't exist yet on this team unless LaVine takes it to another level next season -- something I consider possible.

Bottom line is this. We don't have three cornerstones. We have one. And he's not a scorer.
Wiggins has shown lots of promise and LaVine has loads of potential that he's teased us with a couple games this season. Not knowing for sure what Wiggins will become and with uncertainty surrounding LaVine, the Wolves need to use this year's 1st round pick to defeat another potential cornerstone player. Martins is must a one way role player and I think we've all known that. Pek's days with the Wolves and perhaps in the League are numbered.

I agree, we do have one cornerstone. I'd argue that the cornerstone is Wiggins, and not Rubio. Rubio has to be a threat to shoot over 40%, be respectable from 3, and start finishing in the lane. That will open up so many pass/assist opportunities for him that he just doesn't get now because teams are not afraid of him scoring. His defense is also overrated. I agree with Porkchop, Rubio cannot stay in front of many PG's in this league. He's simply not athletic enough, and gets tore up by ball screens. If he was an "elite defender, or even good defender" he would be guarding a Chris Paul rather than having Wiggins, our rookie, match up against the best pg in the league. If/when he starts to score at a better rate, and improve his on-ball defense, then i'd call him a cornerstone. For now, he'll serve a great purpose facilitating to a team that adds a second cornerstone to our single one in Wiggins. I believe we can go far with Wiggins, Rubio, Lavine, Shabazz, Dieng, Payne and player X from this upcoming draft. We just need to find a few vet FA that can play consistently, and I believe more will come here in the next 2 years.

I love me some Rubiooooo, but we have to be honest about some facets of his game.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I think everyone here agrees that Ricky can't be the best player on your team if you want to be successful. That was a lot of the frustration behind Kahn not just giving Love the 5 years and saving it for an unproven Ricky. Ricky is the glue guy on both ends of the court. He's the grease that helps the wheels spin well. He is a great complementary player that makes everyone else's job easier. Ideally he's your 3rd or 4th best player who supports the top 2 or 3 to be elite. I think Wiggins will be the best player on the team. I still like Lavine as a potential cornerstone as a great scorer because he has the athleticism and handle to get whatever shot he wants. We need to add a big who is a cornerstone either offensively or defensively and possibly both (potentially Towns or Okafor). Then if everything goes as hoped Ricky becomes the 4th best player on that team making everything run smoothly and being a floor general/leader. The biggest obstacle I see is Ricky needing to give the ball up in the fourth to better scoring options and not try to win it himself when he is never going to be the best scoring option on the floor. That's hard to do for competitive leaders because he wants to win so bad and he starts with the ball and has to choose the best option to win the game when he thinks he can win it. We've already seen some ill-advised shots from him in the fourth this year. He needs to be more controlled and try to setup better looks than a 20 foot jumper he thinks he can hit.

[TheFuture]

I think everyone here agrees that Ricky can't be the best player on your team if you want to be successful. That was a lot of the frustration behind Kahn not just giving Love the 5 years and saving it for an unproven Ricky. Ricky is the glue guy on both ends of the court. He's the grease that helps the wheels spin well. He is a great complementary player that makes everyone else's job easier. Ideally he's your 3rd or 4th best player who supports the top 2 or 3 to be elite. I think Wiggins will be the best player on the team. I still like Lavine as a potential cornerstone as a great scorer because he has the athleticism and handle to get whatever shot he wants. We need to add a big who is a cornerstone either offensively or defensively and possibly both (potentially Towns or Okafor). Then if everything goes as hoped Ricky becomes the 4th best player on that team making everything run smoothly and being a floor general/leader. The biggest obstacle I see is Ricky needing to give the ball up in the fourth to better scoring options and not try to win it himself when he is never going to be the best scoring option on the floor. That's hard to do for competitive leaders because he wants to win so bad and he starts with the ball and has to choose the best option to win the game when he thinks he can win it. We've already seen some ill-advised shots from him in the fourth this year. He needs to be more controlled and try to setup better looks than a 20 foot jumper he thinks he can hit.

This. Well said.