AbeVigodaLive wrote:We're still seeing trades here that indicate Andrew Wiggins has great value around the league.
Why?
There's no longer a single definitive thing to point to of incredible value/promise in his game. It's been 5 seasons. He hasn't improved defensively. He hasn't improved offensively. Tangible evidence is everywhere to support this. He can't even hang his hat on being a high-volume scorer anymore.
He was basically Tim Hardaway Jr. last season or a taller Jordan Clarkson... but was paid more.
24 year olds who can score 20 a game just aren't available often even if they have big holes in their game. The fact is teams see the same potential we've seen for years only they actually control things like getting him a shooting coach, getting him with a better strength and conditioning staff, etc. that they think can reasonably help him become a better player. It's the exact same thing with Jeff Green. How many teams took a chance on him thinking they were the team that could make it work? The fact is there are always teams that think they can make it work and it just comes down to the right compensation for the deal to work. You pretty much have to have off-court issues or be Anthony Bennett bad (which Wiggins isn't) for this league to give up on you as a player especially at his age and draft position.
Sure. But a couple of interesting points...
- Nobody was ever on the hook for paying Green $140+M.
- Green has been a "better than replacement level player" 9x in his 11 year career. Wiggins is 0 - 5 right now.
- In 2018, Green even had a better PER than Wiggins and made the NBA Finals as a key player on the Cavs... while on a veteran minimum contract. His reward was another vet minimum contract.
So if we're comparing Wiggins to Green... at about 14x more money but less production... we're more F'd than I first thought.
He's got you there Khansy. Wiggins is a massive albatross with that contract.
No one is taking on Wiggins without considerable assets attached to him. I don't think the front office is willing to do that, so we're stuck with him for now.
Every coach Wiggins plays for seems to fall in love with him. Maybe the same thing will happen with Nurse this Summer. Otherwise it's the same story, the shots need to fall or he's not worth the money. Perhaps Rosas has the inside track on a Chip Engelland clone.
thedoper wrote:Every coach Wiggins plays for seems to fall in love with him. Maybe the same thing will happen with Nurse this Summer. Otherwise it's the same story, the shots need to fall or he's not worth the money. Perhaps Rosas has the inside track on a Chip Engelland clone.
Do they fall in love with him... or do they say they love him for PR reasons?
To be fair, the amount of minutes he's gotten in his career does give credence to your take.
Career 19/4/2/1 on 44/32/73 splits while playing 400 of a possible 410 games playing 36 minutes a game just isn't an albatross. Chandler Parsons not playing for a majority of his max is an albatross. John Wall just starting a new max deal coming off an Achilles injury is an albatross. Wiggins is just overpaid. The guy plays games and he is a rotation level player. You have to miss a bunch of games consistently or be unplayable to be an albatross and he's neither of those. He's not worth that contract, but the amount of hate he gets here is also seems over the top. You'd think he's unplayable if you were a new person reading this board.
thedoper wrote:Every coach Wiggins plays for seems to fall in love with him. Maybe the same thing will happen with Nurse this Summer. Otherwise it's the same story, the shots need to fall or he's not worth the money. Perhaps Rosas has the inside track on a Chip Engelland clone.
Do they fall in love with him... or do they say they love him for PR reasons?
To be fair, the amount of minutes he's gotten in his career does give credence to your take.
The playing time and usage has always seemed disproportionate to what he has delivered statistically. Maybe it's just PR, you could be right. But Sam Mitchell still gets fired up about Wiggins, Saunders seemed pumped to "unlock" him. There's something about his type of general athleticism that seems beyond someone even like Green that makes coaches see things differently I think. It still puzzles me how some things look so effortless for him, but then he can't dribble. There's some weird fine motor skill issue there that also seems to affect his consistency across the board. All the effort in the world doesn't seem like it's going to solve those issues.
thedoper wrote:Every coach Wiggins plays for seems to fall in love with him. Maybe the same thing will happen with Nurse this Summer. Otherwise it's the same story, the shots need to fall or he's not worth the money. Perhaps Rosas has the inside track on a Chip Engelland clone.
Do they fall in love with him... or do they say they love him for PR reasons?
To be fair, the amount of minutes he's gotten in his career does give credence to your take.
The playing time and usage has always seemed disproportionate to what he has delivered statistically. Maybe it's just PR, you could be right. But Sam Mitchell still gets fired up about Wiggins, Saunders seemed pumped to "unlock" him. There's something about his type of general athleticism that seems beyond someone even like Green that makes coaches see things differently I think. It still puzzles me how some things look so effortless for him, but then he can't dribble. There's some weird fine motor skill issue there that also seems to affect his consistency across the board. All the effort in the world doesn't seem like it's going to solve those issues.
I think it's interesting to see just how razor sharp that fine line between really good... average... and mediocre can be in the NBA.
thedoper wrote:Every coach Wiggins plays for seems to fall in love with him. Maybe the same thing will happen with Nurse this Summer. Otherwise it's the same story, the shots need to fall or he's not worth the money. Perhaps Rosas has the inside track on a Chip Engelland clone.
Do they fall in love with him... or do they say they love him for PR reasons?
To be fair, the amount of minutes he's gotten in his career does give credence to your take.
The playing time and usage has always seemed disproportionate to what he has delivered statistically. Maybe it's just PR, you could be right. But Sam Mitchell still gets fired up about Wiggins, Saunders seemed pumped to "unlock" him. There's something about his type of general athleticism that seems beyond someone even like Green that makes coaches see things differently I think. It still puzzles me how some things look so effortless for him, but then he can't dribble. There's some weird fine motor skill issue there that also seems to affect his consistency across the board. All the effort in the world doesn't seem like it's going to solve those issues.
I think it's interesting to see just how razor sharp that fine line between really good... average... and mediocre can be in the NBA.
There's legit talent everywhere.
There are guys that legitimately don't have high end talent but I agree with the statement there is talent everywhere. It's onvuously not this simple but the difference between Wiggins being really good and just being an inefficient scoring guy is basically whether or not shots go in. Nobody is bitching about Kawhi or Durant taking long 2's because they make them. Not many guys can actually get their shot off against pretty much anyone like Wiggins can. The problem is that he settles AND he can't make them. The other problem in his career has been there isn't enough evidence to say he does a ton of other things to help the team win and the motor stuff. I still think he took a legit step forward this last season to being not a lost cause in the effort dept. Don't get it twisted I'm not suggesting a couple years from now the guy is gonna be a top 5 guy and no-brainer HOFer that leads his franchise to contention but there is talent there. Derrick Williams? Sure there was some talent but after a couple seasons it seemed clear to me he wasn't going to be a star. By the time his time was done with the Wolves the question I raised was why was he better than Robbie Hummel? He wasn't good at much of anything. Again he is an example of a league that actually moved towards his theoretical physical and skill set profile and...dude is out of the league. Kahns is right Wiggins isn't worthless Jon K says he isn't a bust he just isn't good enough. The reason people dislike him so much is he makes a ton of money has a legit rep for not playing hard and is maddening. PLUS I think people do see he has some legit talent. Beasley has and has legit talent but never could really put it together but is still a decent rotation player. Wiggins in his flaws can still do stuff a lot of players can't do all that often. Will he be able to do some worthwhile things consistently and give effort? Idk but if he doesn't do some positives this season with a coach that he is close with (plus some other coaches he is familiar with in Vanterpool and Gates) a front office that seems like a good fit as a supporting and analytic drive group...I think he will he shopped hard and there will be a taker at some point...maybe months later. The concern for the people that have zero faith in Wiggins is that he hurts progress before he gets moved which is a fair position.
Sure. It's not that Wiggins is the worst player ever.
But people can see the writing on the wall. With his contract, and his production, he's legitimately holding this franchise back... almost hostage.
And when you add that for many, it seems to be an "effort" issue as much as anything else? The scorn is going to be overwhelming. And entirely understandable in that context.
Chris Paul has demanded a trade. Now that's gonna be a hard contract to move. I think the only team willing to take it on would be the Lakers if they strike out getting Kawhi or Jimmy.
