TheFuture wrote:I wouldn't over think this too much. If The NCAA didn't have such bullshit rules and Wiseman played all year he'd be the runaway #1 pick, it wouldn't even be close.
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Are you sure of that? It's not like there's a lot of tape on a guy like Ball or anything.
I just heard this week Wiseman might drop as low as #7. Some teams simply don't value athletic rolling big men like they once did in this league. Things have changed.
Granted, I think his athletic gifts seem more of a sure thing than most of the crapshoots... but they simply may not be as valuable in the league today, precipitating him dropping some.
[Edit: I see others have chimed in with similar thoughts.]
Let's assume there is no variance in the draft position, and no trades are of value. Wolves draft #3. Edwards and Ball are the consensus #1 and #2. Who do you take at the Wolves pick?
I have no idea. None.
I didn't do much research. Projecting draft pick stuff isn't really my bag.
Besides, I want to gloat about my Brandon Clarke scouting report from last year's draft for as long as I can. I rarely champion any draft picks publicly, so it's important to hold on to any possible victory when possible.
Clarke would have been a great fit.
Maybe Toppin is that guy this year.
What's hilarious to me is that "Rosas is only surrounding Towns with shooters" when he traded up to "get Culver" when he could have sat to get Cam Johnson or Tyler Herro (Camden was 100% on him).
khans2k5 wrote:One thing to factor in with a guy like Wiseman. If a guy like Clint Capela can get played off the floor and off the Rockets all together and he does everything that people hope Wiseman will do, how does Wiseman not just get played off the floor to close games for us? He doesn't stretch the floor at all so KAT is now sitting in a corner with Wiseman setting the screens or else Wiseman is completely worthless on offense. And when KAT posts up he has less space to work with. Wiseman is literally the opposite direction this team and organization is building for the future so I don't see how they take him to stay. Rosas and Ryan refused to play 2 bigs this year so what changes where that's the plan moving forward? People want KAT to get more touches on offense and the only way that happens is if you put guys on the perimeter around him or else he becomes one of those guys on the perimeter not touching the ball or being involved in the action every play. KAT is just gonna have to play defense. There's no way around it. If he doesn't he's not gonna win here nor on his next team. Offense only big men don't win in this league.
This has been my take for a long time. Clint Capela and Rudy Gobert have been played off the floor in playoff games against the Rockets and Warriors. If you can't be a threat to shoot I don't know what value you bring as just rim rolling Center. I am not saying those players have no place in the league but I do think there is a cap on how valuable players like them can be and I don't want to use a high pick on a player like that where you can find a player that can do that for a lot cheaper. Also Kat was supposed to be an elite defender out of college, Wiggins was also suppose to be elite. So even though Wiseman has the defensive physical profile it is not guarantee that he can change the game.
Like you said Wolves showed no signs of ever playing 2 bigs together, I don't think that changes now, especially adding a guy who can't shoot. In the end Kahns is right Towns has to learn to play defense or the wolves are never going anywhere. That is on Towns. I hope he can at least be a league average defender because he has shown signs when the wolves are competitive but if he can't we will suck again.
I am also going to say I don't agree with the point of we have used assets into the Guard position (Beasley, Okogie, Culver) we shouldn't draft another Gaurd. None of those guys have proven they can play in big games. Beasley best role is a gunslinger off the bench, Okogie is a defensive specialist right now (Improved as the year went on but he isn't good enough to not be replaced), Culver had a up and down rookie season with some read flags. If the wolves feel like the best player is a Guard you select the guard because our guards can easily be replaced
First, Rosas and Saunders had no other option but to play one big. They pigeon holed themselves that way.
How did that go?
So does the organization want to add lottery picks and trades into the guard positions only to keep picking the same direction for years til they hit?
What's the issue with adding a super boom or bust big to the team that currently only has one?
He is far more talented than Capela or Gorgui or Whiteside at his age. Gobert is special, but he has zero shooting stroke. Wiseman does.
The wolves have been bottom feeders for so long, go boom or bust on the best talent.
There's still a couple guys I would take over Wiseman in your scenario. I get that he's got talent and potential, but he doesn't fit here at all with what we are trying to build so you are condemning him to fail before he steps foot on the court. The only way I'm taking Wiseman is if I have a deal in place as a centerpiece for like a Beal or a wing to a big needy team. There's only 2 bigs good enough to build around in this league right now because they play both ends of the court at an elite level (AD and Embiid) and the next best 15 players are all guards and wings. Wiseman is not the next big of that caliber so it's just not worth it to see him ride the pine when it most counts because he doesn't fit our plan. KAT would have to leave to make him work long-term so I'm taking a Haliburton or a Hayes over Wiseman every time.
khans2k5 wrote:One thing to factor in with a guy like Wiseman. If a guy like Clint Capela can get played off the floor and off the Rockets all together and he does everything that people hope Wiseman will do, how does Wiseman not just get played off the floor to close games for us? He doesn't stretch the floor at all so KAT is now sitting in a corner with Wiseman setting the screens or else Wiseman is completely worthless on offense. And when KAT posts up he has less space to work with. Wiseman is literally the opposite direction this team and organization is building for the future so I don't see how they take him to stay. Rosas and Ryan refused to play 2 bigs this year so what changes where that's the plan moving forward? People want KAT to get more touches on offense and the only way that happens is if you put guys on the perimeter around him or else he becomes one of those guys on the perimeter not touching the ball or being involved in the action every play. KAT is just gonna have to play defense. There's no way around it. If he doesn't he's not gonna win here nor on his next team. Offense only big men don't win in this league.
This has been my take for a long time. Clint Capela and Rudy Gobert have been played off the floor in playoff games against the Rockets and Warriors. If you can't be a threat to shoot I don't know what value you bring as just rim rolling Center. I am not saying those players have no place in the league but I do think there is a cap on how valuable players like them can be and I don't want to use a high pick on a player like that where you can find a player that can do that for a lot cheaper. Also Kat was supposed to be an elite defender out of college, Wiggins was also suppose to be elite. So even though Wiseman has the defensive physical profile it is not guarantee that he can change the game.
Like you said Wolves showed no signs of ever playing 2 bigs together, I don't think that changes now, especially adding a guy who can't shoot. In the end Kahns is right Towns has to learn to play defense or the wolves are never going anywhere. That is on Towns. I hope he can at least be a league average defender because he has shown signs when the wolves are competitive but if he can't we will suck again.
I am also going to say I don't agree with the point of we have used assets into the Guard position (Beasley, Okogie, Culver) we shouldn't draft another Gaurd. None of those guys have proven they can play in big games. Beasley best role is a gunslinger off the bench, Okogie is a defensive specialist right now (Improved as the year went on but he isn't good enough to not be replaced), Culver had a up and down rookie season with some read flags. If the wolves feel like the best player is a Guard you select the guard because our guards can easily be replaced
First, Rosas and Saunders had no other option but to play one big. They pigeon holed themselves that way.
How did that go?
So does the organization want to add lottery picks and trades into the guard positions only to keep picking the same direction for years til they hit?
What's the issue with adding a super boom or bust big to the team that currently only has one?
He is far more talented than Capela or Gorgui or Whiteside at his age. Gobert is special, but he has zero shooting stroke. Wiseman does.
The wolves have been bottom feeders for so long, go boom or bust on the best talent.
There's still a couple guys I would take over Wiseman in your scenario. I get that he's got talent and potential, but he doesn't fit here at all with what we are trying to build so you are condemning him to fail before he steps foot on the court. The only way I'm taking Wiseman is if I have a deal in place as a centerpiece for like a Beal or a wing to a big needy team. There's only 2 bigs good enough to build around in this league right now because they play both ends of the court at an elite level (AD and Embiid) and the next best 15 players are all guards and wings. Wiseman is not the next big of that caliber so it's just not worth it to see him ride the pine when it most counts because he doesn't fit our plan. KAT would have to leave to make him work long-term so I'm taking a Haliburton or a Hayes over Wiseman every time.
Saunders and Rosas didn't pigeon hole themselves into not playing 2 bigs. They simply didn't want to. That's the way they played and the way they wanted to play. Heck they traded away guys that didn't exactly have a ton of value to be able to play less bigs.You can disagree with their process or philosophy but that's what it looked like to me they wanted to do. They went out of their way to play James Johnson at center at times when they could have played other guys like Spellman who also seemed to fit the philosophy they had. Nope it didn't happen. It's almost amusing that the reasons for optimism about this current group leading the franchise is that they found guys in Naz Reid and Jordan McLaughlin who look like they have a real chance to be at least rotation players going forward. Naz Reid is probably another reason why Wiseman doesn't make a ton of sense unless Wiseman is the clear best player available which some believe he is. I might find other guys to be about the same level but I have some research to do. What is there like 200+ guys in this draft right now? I got some homework to do and I haven't even pored through Highlights of the Vikings 15 picks and undrafted FAs yet. Lol At least I finished all the Harry Potter movies.
khans2k5 wrote:One thing to factor in with a guy like Wiseman. If a guy like Clint Capela can get played off the floor and off the Rockets all together and he does everything that people hope Wiseman will do, how does Wiseman not just get played off the floor to close games for us? He doesn't stretch the floor at all so KAT is now sitting in a corner with Wiseman setting the screens or else Wiseman is completely worthless on offense. And when KAT posts up he has less space to work with. Wiseman is literally the opposite direction this team and organization is building for the future so I don't see how they take him to stay. Rosas and Ryan refused to play 2 bigs this year so what changes where that's the plan moving forward? People want KAT to get more touches on offense and the only way that happens is if you put guys on the perimeter around him or else he becomes one of those guys on the perimeter not touching the ball or being involved in the action every play. KAT is just gonna have to play defense. There's no way around it. If he doesn't he's not gonna win here nor on his next team. Offense only big men don't win in this league.
This has been my take for a long time. Clint Capela and Rudy Gobert have been played off the floor in playoff games against the Rockets and Warriors. If you can't be a threat to shoot I don't know what value you bring as just rim rolling Center. I am not saying those players have no place in the league but I do think there is a cap on how valuable players like them can be and I don't want to use a high pick on a player like that where you can find a player that can do that for a lot cheaper. Also Kat was supposed to be an elite defender out of college, Wiggins was also suppose to be elite. So even though Wiseman has the defensive physical profile it is not guarantee that he can change the game.
Like you said Wolves showed no signs of ever playing 2 bigs together, I don't think that changes now, especially adding a guy who can't shoot. In the end Kahns is right Towns has to learn to play defense or the wolves are never going anywhere. That is on Towns. I hope he can at least be a league average defender because he has shown signs when the wolves are competitive but if he can't we will suck again.
I am also going to say I don't agree with the point of we have used assets into the Guard position (Beasley, Okogie, Culver) we shouldn't draft another Gaurd. None of those guys have proven they can play in big games. Beasley best role is a gunslinger off the bench, Okogie is a defensive specialist right now (Improved as the year went on but he isn't good enough to not be replaced), Culver had a up and down rookie season with some read flags. If the wolves feel like the best player is a Guard you select the guard because our guards can easily be replaced
First, Rosas and Saunders had no other option but to play one big. They pigeon holed themselves that way.
How did that go?
So does the organization want to add lottery picks and trades into the guard positions only to keep picking the same direction for years til they hit?
What's the issue with adding a super boom or bust big to the team that currently only has one?
He is far more talented than Capela or Gorgui or Whiteside at his age. Gobert is special, but he has zero shooting stroke. Wiseman does.
The wolves have been bottom feeders for so long, go boom or bust on the best talent.
There's still a couple guys I would take over Wiseman in your scenario. I get that he's got talent and potential, but he doesn't fit here at all with what we are trying to build so you are condemning him to fail before he steps foot on the court. The only way I'm taking Wiseman is if I have a deal in place as a centerpiece for like a Beal or a wing to a big needy team. There's only 2 bigs good enough to build around in this league right now because they play both ends of the court at an elite level (AD and Embiid) and the next best 15 players are all guards and wings. Wiseman is not the next big of that caliber so it's just not worth it to see him ride the pine when it most counts because he doesn't fit our plan. KAT would have to leave to make him work long-term so I'm taking a Haliburton or a Hayes over Wiseman every time.
Saunders and Rosas didn't pigeon hole themselves into not playing 2 bigs. They simply didn't want to. That's the way they played and the way they wanted to play. Heck they traded away guys that didn't exactly have a ton of value to be able to play less bigs.You can disagree with their process or philosophy but that's what it looked like to me they wanted to do. They went out of their way to play James Johnson at center at times when they could have played other guys like Spellman who also seemed to fit the philosophy they had. Nope it didn't happen. It's almost amusing that the reasons for optimism about this current group leading the franchise is that they found guys in Naz Reid and Jordan McLaughlin who look like they have a real chance to be at least rotation players going forward. Naz Reid is probably another reason why Wiseman doesn't make a ton of sense unless Wiseman is the clear best player available which some believe he is. I might find other guys to be about the same level but I have some research to do. What is there like 200+ guys in this draft right now? I got some homework to do and I haven't even pored through Highlights of the Vikings 15 picks and undrafted FAs yet. Lol At least I finished all the Harry Potter movies.
McLaughlin and Reid are no more than end of bench players. Everyone pines on this Rosas has a grand vision idea, but I don't trust it. You cannot recreate the base which he stems from. Nor do I trust Ryan as the coach, just look at his rotations.
And yea, they did pigeon hole themselves into that position. They literally didn't have an option to do it after they willingly avoided it. Not saying Dieng was even of the Caliber to be the 2nd big in that scenario.
You don't need good perimeter shooters at all five starting positions to be successful in today's NBA. Right now, the Wolves have big-time shooters/scorers at three of the five starting positions in Towns, DLO and Beasley. One of those three, Towns, is a 40% 3-point shooter at the C or PF position. KAT is unique as the most offensively gifted big in the League. That gives the Wolves the luxury of pairing KAT with a defensive, shot-blocking big. That's what the Wolves should do and that's why I see Wiseman as a potentially good fit next to KAT.
Having said that, I agree with those who say that Rosas and Ryan have demonstrated that they have no intention of playing a defensive big next to KAT. I think they are stubbornly wrong-headed in that regard, but that's the reality from last season and I'm not counting on them changing. So unless Rosas and Flip change their approach, this franchise won't get much beyond the 7th or 8th seed because to build a championship caliber team around KAT requires pairing him with a defensive, shot-blocking center. I still think KAT can improve defensively, but at this point I only see him improving at the margins.
lipoli390 wrote:You don't need good perimeter shooters at all five starting positions to be successful in today's NBA. Right now, the Wolves have big-time shooters/scorers at three of the five starting positions in Towns, DLO and Beasley. One of those three, Towns, is a 40% 3-point shooter at the C or PF position. KAT is unique as the most offensively gifted big in the League. That gives the Wolves the luxury of pairing KAT with a defensive, shot-blocking big. That's what the Wolves should do and that's why I see Wiseman as a potentially good fit next to KAT.
Having said that, I agree with those who say that Rosas and Ryan have demonstrated that they have no intention of playing a defensive big next to KAT. I think they are stubbornly wrong-headed in that regard, but that's the reality from last season and I'm not counting on them changing. So unless Rosas and Flip change their approach, this franchise won't get much beyond the 7th or 8th seed because to build a championship caliber team around KAT requires pairing him with a defensive, shot-blocking center. I still think KAT can improve defensively, but at this point I only see him improving at the margins.
I agree that they've shown no inclination to, I just do think it is the wrong approach.
As you're one of few who are not against the two tower method, I ask you this:
Would you offer Indiana our top pick, the 33rd, and James Johnson for Myles Turner?
lipoli390 wrote:You don't need good perimeter shooters at all five starting positions to be successful in today's NBA. Right now, the Wolves have big-time shooters/scorers at three of the five starting positions in Towns, DLO and Beasley. One of those three, Towns, is a 40% 3-point shooter at the C or PF position. KAT is unique as the most offensively gifted big in the League. That gives the Wolves the luxury of pairing KAT with a defensive, shot-blocking big. That's what the Wolves should do and that's why I see Wiseman as a potentially good fit next to KAT.
Having said that, I agree with those who say that Rosas and Ryan have demonstrated that they have no intention of playing a defensive big next to KAT. I think they are stubbornly wrong-headed in that regard, but that's the reality from last season and I'm not counting on them changing. So unless Rosas and Flip change their approach, this franchise won't get much beyond the 7th or 8th seed because to build a championship caliber team around KAT requires pairing him with a defensive, shot-blocking center. I still think KAT can improve defensively, but at this point I only see him improving at the margins.
I agree that they've shown no inclination to, I just do think it is the wrong approach.
As you're one of few who are not against the two tower method, I ask you this:
Would you offer Indiana our top pick, the 33rd, and James Johnson for Myles Turner?
He would be absolutely perfect next to KAT.
Future - You and I have the same perspective on this. If I were Rosas, I'd do the deal you suggested. Turner is not he physical inside presence I'd ideally want and he's a subpar rebounder for his size and position. However, he's a bona fide shot-blocker who could significantly bolster our inside defense with his mobility and rim protection. And he's also the someone Rosas and company might be interested in because he has SF mobility and a decent shot with 3-point range. So I think you've put your finger on a potentially realistic deal as well as a good one for the Wolves.
lipoli390 wrote:You don't need good perimeter shooters at all five starting positions to be successful in today's NBA. Right now, the Wolves have big-time shooters/scorers at three of the five starting positions in Towns, DLO and Beasley. One of those three, Towns, is a 40% 3-point shooter at the C or PF position. KAT is unique as the most offensively gifted big in the League. That gives the Wolves the luxury of pairing KAT with a defensive, shot-blocking big. That's what the Wolves should do and that's why I see Wiseman as a potentially good fit next to KAT.
Having said that, I agree with those who say that Rosas and Ryan have demonstrated that they have no intention of playing a defensive big next to KAT. I think they are stubbornly wrong-headed in that regard, but that's the reality from last season and I'm not counting on them changing. So unless Rosas and Flip change their approach, this franchise won't get much beyond the 7th or 8th seed because to build a championship caliber team around KAT requires pairing him with a defensive, shot-blocking center. I still think KAT can improve defensively, but at this point I only see him improving at the margins.
I agree that they've shown no inclination to, I just do think it is the wrong approach.
As you're one of few who are not against the two tower method, I ask you this:
Would you offer Indiana our top pick, the 33rd, and James Johnson for Myles Turner?
He would be absolutely perfect next to KAT.
Future - You and I have the same perspective on this. If I were Rosas, I'd do the deal you suggested. Turner is not he physical inside presence I'd ideally want and he's a subpar rebounder for his size and position. However, he's a bona fide shot-blocker who could significantly bolster our inside defense with his mobility and rim protection. And he's also the someone Rosas and company might be interested in because he has SF mobility and a decent shot with 3-point range. So I think you've put your finger on a potentially realistic deal as well as a good one for the Wolves.
Our top pick AND 33 for Turner (who I suggested earlier as an option) Plus having to pay him (even if you think his salary is reasonable) seems like too much. I value 33 in any draft but this one it might have even more value. It might be more of a crap shot but it may have some more chance of getting you a good player because this draft is so wonky. It's basically a low 1st round pick with a dirt cheap salary. The Wolves NEED to add players like that with their cap situation Heck James Johnson has some value in this deal as well especially to the Pacers who would Likely want a guy that can play. Our top pick and James Johnson the most I would give up for Turner. I'd take my chances of getting a Myles Turner level player with 2 draft picks and save a bunch of cap space the next few years in doing so.
FWIW thinking about picking Wiseman made me think the Wolves should feel some pressure to make some moves to be able to win some more games sooner than later so Towns doesn't decide to leave. I also don't think they should make moves scared of that scenario. If Towns wants out then extract a King's ransome and Build around whatever you have. That's too easy for me to say and also too easy to actually play out but that's how I see it.
lipoli390 wrote:You don't need good perimeter shooters at all five starting positions to be successful in today's NBA. Right now, the Wolves have big-time shooters/scorers at three of the five starting positions in Towns, DLO and Beasley. One of those three, Towns, is a 40% 3-point shooter at the C or PF position. KAT is unique as the most offensively gifted big in the League. That gives the Wolves the luxury of pairing KAT with a defensive, shot-blocking big. That's what the Wolves should do and that's why I see Wiseman as a potentially good fit next to KAT.
Having said that, I agree with those who say that Rosas and Ryan have demonstrated that they have no intention of playing a defensive big next to KAT. I think they are stubbornly wrong-headed in that regard, but that's the reality from last season and I'm not counting on them changing. So unless Rosas and Flip change their approach, this franchise won't get much beyond the 7th or 8th seed because to build a championship caliber team around KAT requires pairing him with a defensive, shot-blocking center. I still think KAT can improve defensively, but at this point I only see him improving at the margins.
I agree that they've shown no inclination to, I just do think it is the wrong approach.
As you're one of few who are not against the two tower method, I ask you this:
Would you offer Indiana our top pick, the 33rd, and James Johnson for Myles Turner?
He would be absolutely perfect next to KAT.
Future - You and I have the same perspective on this. If I were Rosas, I'd do the deal you suggested. Turner is not he physical inside presence I'd ideally want and he's a subpar rebounder for his size and position. However, he's a bona fide shot-blocker who could significantly bolster our inside defense with his mobility and rim protection. And he's also the someone Rosas and company might be interested in because he has SF mobility and a decent shot with 3-point range. So I think you've put your finger on a potentially realistic deal as well as a good one for the Wolves.
Our top pick AND 33 for Turner (who I suggested earlier as an option) Plus having to pay him (even if you think his salary is reasonable) seems like too much. I value 33 in any draft but this one it might have even more value. It might be more of a crap shot but it may have some more chance of getting you a good player because this draft is so wonky. It's basically a low 1st round pick with a dirt cheap salary. The Wolves NEED to add players like that with their cap situation Heck James Johnson has some value in this deal as well especially to the Pacers who would Likely want a guy that can play. Our top pick and James Johnson the most I would give up for Turner. I'd take my chances of getting a Myles Turner level player with 2 draft picks and save a bunch of cap space the next few years in doing so.
FWIW thinking about picking Wiseman made me think the Wolves should feel some pressure to make some moves to be able to win some more games sooner than later so Towns doesn't decide to leave. I also don't think they should make moves scared of that scenario. If Towns wants out then extract a King's ransome and Build around whatever you have. That's too easy for me to say and also too easy to actually play out but that's how I see it.
Monster - You make a good point about the value of the 33rd pick. You also make a good point about Turner's contract and the Wolves' need to manage their cap space given the big salaries they have on the books in KAT, DLO, and probably Beasley. I actually think that our top pick plus James Johnson without including #33 would be a fair offer. A lot depends on who's available. If the Wolves are convinced that a franchise player (maybe Ball) is available when on the clock with their top pick, then they shouldn't trade that pick for Turner or anyone else. Similarly, if they're convinced they will get someone are good or better than Turner at #33, then they shouldn't offer that pick for Turner. But Turner is a proven NBA talent who would provide much-needed rim protection this team doesn't currently have. So Future's idea is tempting.
I feel like the better shooters in this draft project to go closer to around the second pic. So going Wisemen or the European with the first pic and a shooter with the second is the way I would go,
