Skill/Rotation Issues

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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

lipoli390 wrote:I want to see Saric get 30-32 minutes, KAT 35-37, and Okogie at least 20-25. Other than that, I'm not wed to any particular allocation of minutes.

Rose's interview after yesterday's practice makes it sound like he expects to play a lot of SG next to Teague...if he does, I wonder where Okogie will get his minutes. If everyone is healthy tonight, we should get a much better picture of how Thibs is thinking. His comments yesterday about Tolliver (something like "he just needs to be ready when we call his name") made it sound like he is definitely the odd man out with the arrival of Saric.
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Monster
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Monster »

I get the thinking of Dieng being out of the rotation and I thinking sometimes he probably should be depending on who else is out there but I think he has value even though he is flawed. He brings some size and length that Taj doesn't have and he is rebounding at a high rate 12 per 36mins (top 30 defensive rebounding percentage). He is a little more modern than some of the backup centers other teams throw out there and remember one of the the biggest flaws of this team is rebounding the ball.

The Wolves have options and I hope Thibs uses them. We should be avoiding matchups were we are at a clear disadvantage like the last Lakers game where they went small and Taj was following KCP around the perimeter. Thibs can have his set rotations for the mot part but we al want to see some flexibility here and there to help put guys in the right positions. Tolliver can be employed at times to get more shooting on the floor. I'm not worried about him causing a problem or coming innthe floor if he hasn't played a couple games either. It wouldn't be the worst thing ever to get Taj fewer minutes and maybe a rest game every once in a while.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Q12543 [enjin:6621299] »

My concern is less about precisely WHO is in the rotation, as I think Thibs is going to play board favorite Okogie (I mean, how could he not!?), but more around the minutes played and the mixing of players (no hockey shifts please!). If we are fully healthy, there is really no reason to play any starter more than 35 minutes in non-OT games.
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Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Hicks123 [enjin:6700838] »

Man, the Okogie love is getting crazy! You would think this guy is posted regular 20-10 stats the way he is discussed around here. I get the optimism, as he has shown some hustle and energy, but the guy is shooting 37% and averaging just over 2 rpg the past 5 games.

I guess the thing that gets me most with this guy is everybody getting on Thibs for not utilizing him more at the end of a couple games. While his calling card is defense in the future, my guess is that he (like other rookies) is fairly undisciplined at times, and Thibs probably trusts other guys with a longer track records in specific situations. I think Okogie has a chance to be that guy closing games as a defender, but that may not be deserved just yet.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Q12543 [enjin:6621299] »

Hicks123 wrote:Man, the Okogie love is getting crazy! You would think this guy is posted regular 20-10 stats the way he is discussed around here. I get the optimism, as he has shown some hustle and energy, but the guy is shooting 37% and averaging just over 2 rpg the past 5 games.

I guess the thing that gets me most with this guy is everybody getting on Thibs for not utilizing him more at the end of a couple games. While his calling card is defense in the future, my guess is that he (like other rookies) is fairly undisciplined at times, and Thibs probably trusts other guys with a longer track records in specific situations. I think Okogie has a chance to be that guy closing games as a defender, but that may not be deserved just yet.


Hicks, I don't disagree with you, although the thing that doesn't show up in the standard box score are the offensive fouls drawn, the contested shots missed, etc. But yeah, he's still raw in a lot of ways. I do think he deserves a spot in the regular rotation, but how many minutes he plays is a fair debate. I'm not sure he should be closing games either.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Lipoli390 »

monsterpile wrote:I get the thinking of Dieng being out of the rotation and I thinking sometimes he probably should be depending on who else is out there but I think he has value even though he is flawed. He brings some size and length that Taj doesn't have and he is rebounding at a high rate 12 per 36mins (top 30 defensive rebounding percentage). He is a little more modern than some of the backup centers other teams throw out there and remember one of the the biggest flaws of this team is rebounding the ball.

The Wolves have options and I hope Thibs uses them. We should be avoiding matchups were we are at a clear disadvantage like the last Lakers game where they went small and Taj was following KCP around the perimeter. Thibs can have his set rotations for the mot part but we al want to see some flexibility here and there to help put guys in the right positions. Tolliver can be employed at times to get more shooting on the floor. I'm not worried about him causing a problem or coming innthe floor if he hasn't played a couple games either. It wouldn't be the worst thing ever to get Taj fewer minutes and maybe a rest game every once in a while.


Good points, Monster. I'll add that Gorgui's advanced defensive stats are significantly better than Gibson's so far this season. I love Taj, but he not a particularly good rim protector and his shooting range is limited even though he's been hitting some corner threes this season. You points about avoiding bad matchups and not being slavishly hooked to set rotations are excellent.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Lipoli390 »

Hicks123 wrote:Man, the Okogie love is getting crazy! You would think this guy is posted regular 20-10 stats the way he is discussed around here. I get the optimism, as he has shown some hustle and energy, but the guy is shooting 37% and averaging just over 2 rpg the past 5 games.

I guess the thing that gets me most with this guy is everybody getting on Thibs for not utilizing him more at the end of a couple games. While his calling card is defense in the future, my guess is that he (like other rookies) is fairly undisciplined at times, and Thibs probably trusts other guys with a longer track records in specific situations. I think Okogie has a chance to be that guy closing games as a defender, but that may not be deserved just yet.


Actually, Okogie is averaging 2.8 rebounds per game in his last five games. That's not "just over three." :) That's essentially 3 per game. That's 5 boards per game on a 35-minute per game basis. Not bad. His shooting remains a work in progress. His percentage would be much higher if his perimeter shots were limited primarily to catch-and-shoot jumpers.

I agree Okogie shouldn't necessarily be closing games as a general matter. But I thought he should have stayed on the floor the other night against the Pelicans because of how well he was playing that game and how well the team performed when he was on the floor. That doesn't necessarily mean he should be out there to close games all the time. Thibodeau's inflexibility and failure to adapt to the situation was my beef regarding the use of Okogie in that game. It's a common problem with Thibodeau's coaching - not limited to Okogie.

I do think Thibodeau should make sure Okogie is a major part of the rotation and I think his minutes should be in the 20-25 minute range, going up from there if his shooting improves. My thinking is two-fold. First, Okogie makes the team better when he's on the floor. You have to watch him play game in and game out to see that impact, which stems from his hustle, disruptive defense, constant movement, high energy and really good instincts. He makes amazingly good decisions for a rookie and never stalls the ball. He makes quick decisions and has a great nose for the ball. He's already our best player at getting to loose balls. Second, he needs more PT to further his development. A lot of fans on this board criticize the Wolves for poor player development. The key to player development is time on the court. There's no escaping that fact. If we want to see player development on this team, then talented rookies like Okogie need more playing time than they would otherwise get based on their current stats if they were seasoned vets. We can't have it both ways, complaining about the lack of player development but not wanting to live with the growing pains that rookies exhibit on the court.

I love Derrick Rose and I can see playing Teague and Rose together. But neither one is the future of this team. And it's all about the future. I'd like to see the Wolves make the playoffs this season, but that's a tall order given the strength of the West and the Wolves' slow start. In any event, making the playoffs this season would mean a 7th or 8th seed and quick first-round exit. I'm not suggesting the Wolves tank the season. But while attempting to win every game, the Wolves have to keep one eye fixed towards the future. In my view, that means more playing time for Okogie and Saric than might otherwise be warranted. It means running the offense more through KAT. It means learning how to use Wiggins more effectively given his terrible ball-handling skills. It means more playing time for Tyus so he can play through and hopefully get out of his current funk and pick up where he left off late last season. It even means more minutes for Gorgui to see how much value we can get out of his fairly big still long-term contract.

Three years from now, Teague, Rose and Gibson will be gone. The Wolves organization, top to bottom, including the head coach, needs to keep that in mind as we move forward this season.
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Monster
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Monster »

lipoli390 wrote:
Hicks123 wrote:Man, the Okogie love is getting crazy! You would think this guy is posted regular 20-10 stats the way he is discussed around here. I get the optimism, as he has shown some hustle and energy, but the guy is shooting 37% and averaging just over 2 rpg the past 5 games.

I guess the thing that gets me most with this guy is everybody getting on Thibs for not utilizing him more at the end of a couple games. While his calling card is defense in the future, my guess is that he (like other rookies) is fairly undisciplined at times, and Thibs probably trusts other guys with a longer track records in specific situations. I think Okogie has a chance to be that guy closing games as a defender, but that may not be deserved just yet.


Actually, Okogie is averaging 2.8 rebounds per game in his last five games. That's not "just over three." :) That's essentially 3 per game. That's 5 boards per game on a 35-minute per game basis. Not bad. His shooting remains a work in progress. His percentage would be much higher is his perimeter shots were limited primarily to catch-and-shoot jumpers.

I agree Okogie shouldn't necessarily be closing games. I thought he should have stayed on the floor the other night against the Pelicans because of how well he was playing that game and how well the team performed when he was on the floor. That doesn't necessarily mean he should be out there to close games all the time. Thibodeau's inflexibility and failure to adapt to the situation was my beef regarding the use of Okogie in that game. It's a common problem with Thibodeau's coaching - not limited to Okogie.

I do think Thibodeau should make sure Okogie is a major part of the rotation and I think his minutes should be in the 20-25 minute range, going up from there if his shooting improves. My thinking is two-fold. First, Okogie makes the team better when he's on the floor. You have to watch him play game in and game out to see that impact, which stems from his hustle, disruptive defense, constant movement, high energy and really good instincts. He makes amazingly good decisions for a rookie and never stalls the ball. He makes quick decisions and has a great nose for the ball. He's already our best player at getting to loose balls. Second, he needs more PT to further his development. A lot of fans on this board criticize the Wolves for poor player development. The key to player development is time on the court. There's no escaping that fact. If we want to see player development on this team, then talented rookies like Okogie need more playing time than they would otherwise get based on their current stats if they were seasoned vets. We can't have it both ways, complaining about the lack of player development but not wanting to live with the growing pains that rookies exhibit on the court.

I love Derrick Rose and I can see playing Teague and Rose together. But neither one is the future of this team. And it's all about the future. I'd like to see the Wolves make the playoffs this season, but that's a tall order given the strength of the West and the Wolves' slow start. In any event, making the playoffs this season would mean a 7th or 8th seed and quick first-round exit. I'm not suggesting the Wolves tank the season. But while attempting to win every game, the Wolves have to keep one eye fixed towards the future. In my view, that means more playing time for Okogie and Saric than might otherwise be warranted. It means running the offense more through KAT. It means learning how to use Wiggins more effectively given his terrible ball-handling skills. It means more playing time for Tyus so he can play through and hopefully get out of his current funk and pick up where he left off late last season. It even means more minutes for Gorgui to see how much value we can get out of his fairly big still long-term contract.

Three years from now, Teague, Rose and Gibson will be gone. The Wolves organization, top to bottom, including the head coach, needs to keep that in mind going forward.


I think Rose could end up being part of this organization for more than 3 years and that actually being a good thing. I think one good way of getting a guy like Okogie on the floor is resting a guy like Rose to try and keep him healthy. Tyus can get some additional minutes as well.

One thing it's easy to forget is that there have been multiple injuries Butler being out 2 new players being added etc. it's not like there have been a super set group for Thibs to have worked with. That is part of the reason for the Wolves record not just the Butler thing. Injuries have had some positives in getting Okogie and even Rose some opportunity that they would not have had otherwise.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Lipoli390 »

monsterpile wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
Hicks123 wrote:Man, the Okogie love is getting crazy! You would think this guy is posted regular 20-10 stats the way he is discussed around here. I get the optimism, as he has shown some hustle and energy, but the guy is shooting 37% and averaging just over 2 rpg the past 5 games.

I guess the thing that gets me most with this guy is everybody getting on Thibs for not utilizing him more at the end of a couple games. While his calling card is defense in the future, my guess is that he (like other rookies) is fairly undisciplined at times, and Thibs probably trusts other guys with a longer track records in specific situations. I think Okogie has a chance to be that guy closing games as a defender, but that may not be deserved just yet.


Actually, Okogie is averaging 2.8 rebounds per game in his last five games. That's not "just over three." :) That's essentially 3 per game. That's 5 boards per game on a 35-minute per game basis. Not bad. His shooting remains a work in progress. His percentage would be much higher is his perimeter shots were limited primarily to catch-and-shoot jumpers.

I agree Okogie shouldn't necessarily be closing games. I thought he should have stayed on the floor the other night against the Pelicans because of how well he was playing that game and how well the team performed when he was on the floor. That doesn't necessarily mean he should be out there to close games all the time. Thibodeau's inflexibility and failure to adapt to the situation was my beef regarding the use of Okogie in that game. It's a common problem with Thibodeau's coaching - not limited to Okogie.

I do think Thibodeau should make sure Okogie is a major part of the rotation and I think his minutes should be in the 20-25 minute range, going up from there if his shooting improves. My thinking is two-fold. First, Okogie makes the team better when he's on the floor. You have to watch him play game in and game out to see that impact, which stems from his hustle, disruptive defense, constant movement, high energy and really good instincts. He makes amazingly good decisions for a rookie and never stalls the ball. He makes quick decisions and has a great nose for the ball. He's already our best player at getting to loose balls. Second, he needs more PT to further his development. A lot of fans on this board criticize the Wolves for poor player development. The key to player development is time on the court. There's no escaping that fact. If we want to see player development on this team, then talented rookies like Okogie need more playing time than they would otherwise get based on their current stats if they were seasoned vets. We can't have it both ways, complaining about the lack of player development but not wanting to live with the growing pains that rookies exhibit on the court.

I love Derrick Rose and I can see playing Teague and Rose together. But neither one is the future of this team. And it's all about the future. I'd like to see the Wolves make the playoffs this season, but that's a tall order given the strength of the West and the Wolves' slow start. In any event, making the playoffs this season would mean a 7th or 8th seed and quick first-round exit. I'm not suggesting the Wolves tank the season. But while attempting to win every game, the Wolves have to keep one eye fixed towards the future. In my view, that means more playing time for Okogie and Saric than might otherwise be warranted. It means running the offense more through KAT. It means learning how to use Wiggins more effectively given his terrible ball-handling skills. It means more playing time for Tyus so he can play through and hopefully get out of his current funk and pick up where he left off late last season. It even means more minutes for Gorgui to see how much value we can get out of his fairly big still long-term contract.

Three years from now, Teague, Rose and Gibson will be gone. The Wolves organization, top to bottom, including the head coach, needs to keep that in mind going forward.


I think Rose could end up being part of this organization for more than 3 years and that actually being a good thing. I think one good way of getting a guy like Okogie on the floor is resting a guy like Rose to try and keep him healthy. Tyus can get some additional minutes as well.

One thing it's easy to forget is that there have been multiple injuries Butler being out 2 new players being added etc. it's not like there have been a super set group for Thibs to have worked with. That is part of the reason for the Wolves record not just the Butler thing. Injuries have had some positives in getting Okogie and even Rose some opportunity that they would not have had otherwise.


As I think about it, I think you're right that Rose could be here more than 3 years. And I agree with you that would be a good thing. He clearly has a lot of game left and he's ba 30 years old. If his minutes are limited, I could see him contributing positively to this team for the next 3-5 years. I love his attitude. He's what I'd call a true leader by example. Thibodeau nailed what leadership is all about when he described leaders as those who unite and inspire. I think Rose does both. But I'd still bet that Rose isn't here three years from now.
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Monster
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Re: Skill/Rotation Issues

Post by Monster »

lipoli390 wrote:
monsterpile wrote:
lipoli390 wrote:
Hicks123 wrote:Man, the Okogie love is getting crazy! You would think this guy is posted regular 20-10 stats the way he is discussed around here. I get the optimism, as he has shown some hustle and energy, but the guy is shooting 37% and averaging just over 2 rpg the past 5 games.

I guess the thing that gets me most with this guy is everybody getting on Thibs for not utilizing him more at the end of a couple games. While his calling card is defense in the future, my guess is that he (like other rookies) is fairly undisciplined at times, and Thibs probably trusts other guys with a longer track records in specific situations. I think Okogie has a chance to be that guy closing games as a defender, but that may not be deserved just yet.


Actually, Okogie is averaging 2.8 rebounds per game in his last five games. That's not "just over three." :) That's essentially 3 per game. That's 5 boards per game on a 35-minute per game basis. Not bad. His shooting remains a work in progress. His percentage would be much higher is his perimeter shots were limited primarily to catch-and-shoot jumpers.

I agree Okogie shouldn't necessarily be closing games. I thought he should have stayed on the floor the other night against the Pelicans because of how well he was playing that game and how well the team performed when he was on the floor. That doesn't necessarily mean he should be out there to close games all the time. Thibodeau's inflexibility and failure to adapt to the situation was my beef regarding the use of Okogie in that game. It's a common problem with Thibodeau's coaching - not limited to Okogie.

I do think Thibodeau should make sure Okogie is a major part of the rotation and I think his minutes should be in the 20-25 minute range, going up from there if his shooting improves. My thinking is two-fold. First, Okogie makes the team better when he's on the floor. You have to watch him play game in and game out to see that impact, which stems from his hustle, disruptive defense, constant movement, high energy and really good instincts. He makes amazingly good decisions for a rookie and never stalls the ball. He makes quick decisions and has a great nose for the ball. He's already our best player at getting to loose balls. Second, he needs more PT to further his development. A lot of fans on this board criticize the Wolves for poor player development. The key to player development is time on the court. There's no escaping that fact. If we want to see player development on this team, then talented rookies like Okogie need more playing time than they would otherwise get based on their current stats if they were seasoned vets. We can't have it both ways, complaining about the lack of player development but not wanting to live with the growing pains that rookies exhibit on the court.

I love Derrick Rose and I can see playing Teague and Rose together. But neither one is the future of this team. And it's all about the future. I'd like to see the Wolves make the playoffs this season, but that's a tall order given the strength of the West and the Wolves' slow start. In any event, making the playoffs this season would mean a 7th or 8th seed and quick first-round exit. I'm not suggesting the Wolves tank the season. But while attempting to win every game, the Wolves have to keep one eye fixed towards the future. In my view, that means more playing time for Okogie and Saric than might otherwise be warranted. It means running the offense more through KAT. It means learning how to use Wiggins more effectively given his terrible ball-handling skills. It means more playing time for Tyus so he can play through and hopefully get out of his current funk and pick up where he left off late last season. It even means more minutes for Gorgui to see how much value we can get out of his fairly big still long-term contract.

Three years from now, Teague, Rose and Gibson will be gone. The Wolves organization, top to bottom, including the head coach, needs to keep that in mind going forward.


I think Rose could end up being part of this organization for more than 3 years and that actually being a good thing. I think one good way of getting a guy like Okogie on the floor is resting a guy like Rose to try and keep him healthy. Tyus can get some additional minutes as well.

One thing it's easy to forget is that there have been multiple injuries Butler being out 2 new players being added etc. it's not like there have been a super set group for Thibs to have worked with. That is part of the reason for the Wolves record not just the Butler thing. Injuries have had some positives in getting Okogie and even Rose some opportunity that they would not have had otherwise.


As I think about it, I think you're right that Rose could be here more than 3 years. And I agree with you that would be a good thing. He clearly has a lot of game left and he's ba 30 years old. If his minutes are limited, I could see him contributing positively to this team for the next 3-5 years. I love his attitude. He's what I'd call a true leader by example. Thibodeau nailed what leadership is all about when he described leaders as those who unite and inspire. I think Rose does both. But I'd still bet that Rose isn't here three years from now.


Rose not being here 3 years from now is a good bet no doubt. I guess my point was that there could be reason to invest some in him to some extent. He could be part of the future. I feel like even Taj could be here longer if he decided to take a cheap deal to come back. Teague...I doubt he will be here past his contract. the problem is Teague with his faults is a good player and will need to play when Rose is injured or needs to rest. I'm with Q in the idea this team should be looking at trying to win games. Even Q isn't against a guy like Okogie getting some run while doing so. :)

Back to Rose...its way to early and all that and things could go very wrong becasue of injury or soemthign else, but if the way he has carried himself is any indication of what he can do on this team he might be part of the solution as a guy that can actually lead this team so something higher. Note there was a report of Glen Taylor pointing to Rose and calling him a leader. Interesting stuff.
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