LaVine ranks as one of the worst defenders in league and Wiggins is pretty bad too

[kekgeek]

Well those guys have played a ton of minutes for a team that's been a top 10 in defensive efficiency for a 20+ game stretch so they much be doing something right. If we are 30 game into next year and we haven't seen some legit improvement I'll be a lot more concerned. Again if Bazz can learn to play D...

Agreed, the thing what annoys me is RPM in general is such a noisy stat, I mean look at cole Aldrich he was 2nd in DRPM for centers now he is in the 30s for centers. Pachulia moves up like 15 spots now that he is on the Warriors. Did these get so much better/worse because they did they or is it the players around them

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Well those guys have played a ton of minutes for a team that's been a top 10 in defensive efficiency for a 20+ game stretch so they much be doing something right. If we are 30 game into next year and we haven't seen some legit improvement I'll be a lot more concerned. Again if Bazz can learn to play D...

Agreed, the thing what annoys me is RPM in general is such a noisy stat, I mean look at cole Aldrich he was 2nd in DRPM for centers now he is in the 30s for centers. Pachulia moves up like 15 spots now that he is on the Warriors. Did these get so much better/worse because they did they or is it the players around them

The fewer minutes someone plays, the more variability there will be in any stat, so it makes sense to me that bench guys like Aldrich can move around quite a bit from year to year.

Also, players' impact fluctuates in other stats as well from year to year. Some years are better than others.

I will agree that RPM/DRPM has more noise in it than something like rebounding (for example), but it is directionally correct. The guys at the top, like Rudy Gobert and Draymond Green, really are key guys in really good team defenses.

[Coolbreeze44]

Stats are what they are, numerical facts or pieces of data drawn from a specific sample of larger sets of numerical data. Stats themselves really can't be noisy. What becomes noisy is the way the statistics are interpreted within a more comprehensive analysis. Trust me, you can find a statistic to back up just about any point you want to make. Those interpretations can be more or less noisy depending on the quality of the comprehensive analysis being performed. If you're going to say Towns is a great rebounder because he averages 12 per game, to me that is very noisy. Who does he play with? What position does he guard? What kind of shooting percentage does the defense cause? How many minutes does he play? However, if you say KAT is a great rebounder because through film analysis he consistently puts a body on his man, he's a quick jumper, has great hands, and averages 12 boards per game, the stat has a lot less noise. I know it's a pet peeve of mine, but statistics are not arguments in themselves.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Stats are what they are, numerical facts or pieces of data drawn from a specific sample of larger sets of numerical data. Stats themselves really can't be noisy. What becomes noisy is the way the statistics are interpreted within a more comprehensive analysis. Trust me, you can find a statistic to back up just about any point you want to make. Those interpretations can be more or less noisy depending on the quality of the comprehensive analysis being performed. If you're going to say Towns is a great rebounder because he averages 12 per game, to me that is very noisy. Who does he play with? What position does he guard? What kind of shooting percentage does the defense cause? How many minutes does he play? However, if you say KAT is a great rebounder because through film analysis he consistently puts a body on his man, he's a quick jumper, has great hands, and averages 12 boards per game, the stat has a lot less noise. I know it's a pet peeve of mine, but statistics are not arguments in themselves.

As it relates to individual metrics - like RPM - I agree that one can not make an argument by that metric alone without any other information or observation. But there is such a concept as "preponderance of evidence" and I think that applies and stats are a really big part of it.

Let's start with Zach's poor DRPM. The first question I'd ask is, do I ever actually observe him playing poor defense? The answer is yes, I do. Anecdotally, he appears to get beat on back door cuts a lot and he tends to over-react to fakes and change of direction moves such that he has a difficult time recovering into a good defensive position. But that's my flawed and biased brain watching - I don't have a perfect memory of every defensive possession he's played in!

The second question I'd ask is, are there other individual stats that indicate Zach might be a poor defender? The answer again is yes. He gets very few deflections (steals and blocks) according to box score data and he is a mediocre defensive rebounder.

The third question I would ask is how does the team perform defensively when he is on the court? The answer is, very poorly!

So now I have multiple data points to form an argument. And the aggregate evidence doesn't really contradict what the original stat (RPM in this case) told us.

There may be other players where the data is much more conflicting, so perhaps Zach was too easy of an example!

[Porckchop]

These are the threads that always make me bring up Rubio. So much patience given to one guy with flaws but that same amount of patience isn't afforded to other players.

Ricky's been playing great of late, seems to be shooting with some confidence

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

These are the threads that always make me bring up Rubio. So much patience given to one guy with flaws but that same amount of patience isn't afforded to other players.

Ricky's been playing great of late, seems to be shooting with some confidence

I'm not following you here. Rubio is what he is. You either think he's a net positive or a net negative. If you are in the net positive camp, there is nothing to be patient about since you pretty much think he's been a solid PG since he was a rookie. If you are in the net negative camp (like you), you think his poor shooting and scoring has held this team back from day one. There really isn't a "patience" narrative to be found here, so I don't understand the connection.

[fondey [enjin:6644772]]

These are the threads that always make me bring up Rubio. So much patience given to one guy with flaws but that same amount of patience isn't afforded to other players.

Ricky's been playing great of late, seems to be shooting with some confidence

I'm not following you here. Rubio is what he is. You either think he's a net positive or a net negative. If you are in the net positive camp, there is nothing to be patient about since you pretty much think he's been a solid PG since he was a rookie. If you are in the net negative camp (like you), you think his poor shooting and scoring has held this team back from day one. There really isn't a "patience" narrative to be found here, so I don't understand the connection.

His point is most fans were willing to give Rubio the longest leash in the world despite all his shortcomings, but we seem unwilling to show the same patience for players that are arguably more talented, like Lavine and Wiggins.

I think Lavine should sit out the next game and have his health re-evaluated. We all see that his level of play has dropped substantially. I don't think we should bench the guy because of this run because it would derail our efforts this season to increase his confidence level. But, I am pretty convinced this starting lineup we be much better off right now slipping in Shabazz at SF in place of Lavine. And i think Lavine would excel in the 2nd unit being the main guy on offense. Long term though, we need to commit to one of these guys to be a starting level player or a 6th man, and i think this season is the perfect opportunity to figure that out. If there did happen to be some nagging injury with Lavine, it'd be a good opportunity to let Shabazz start and experiment with that lineup while we give Lavine an extra-long rest.

[AbeVigodaLive]

These are the threads that always make me bring up Rubio. So much patience given to one guy with flaws but that same amount of patience isn't afforded to other players.

Ricky's been playing great of late, seems to be shooting with some confidence

I'm not following you here. Rubio is what he is. You either think he's a net positive or a net negative. If you are in the net positive camp, there is nothing to be patient about since you pretty much think he's been a solid PG since he was a rookie. If you are in the net negative camp (like you), you think his poor shooting and scoring has held this team back from day one. There really isn't a "patience" narrative to be found here, so I don't understand the connection.

His point is most fans were willing to give Rubio the longest leash in the world despite all his shortcomings, but we seem unwilling to show the same patience for players that are arguably more talented, like Lavine and Wiggins.

"Rubio is going to become a very good three point shooter."

- Circa 2012 - 2017

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

These are the threads that always make me bring up Rubio. So much patience given to one guy with flaws but that same amount of patience isn't afforded to other players.

Ricky's been playing great of late, seems to be shooting with some confidence

Yes, Ricky is treated differently here than arguably more talented players like Wig and Zach, but I think he has earned that. Ricky is a very bad shooter...there's just no disputing that. But his peripheral and on/off numbers have consistently demonstrated that he makes his teammates better and does most things (except shooting of course) at a high level. And he established those good numbers at a very young age early in his career. Wig and Zach are terrific scorers (or at least were before Zach's recent slump) but statistically they have not yet shown that their contributions in areas other than scoring are helping the team enough. I think that is why most Wolves fans treat them differently.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

These are the threads that always make me bring up Rubio. So much patience given to one guy with flaws but that same amount of patience isn't afforded to other players.

Ricky's been playing great of late, seems to be shooting with some confidence

I'm not following you here. Rubio is what he is. You either think he's a net positive or a net negative. If you are in the net positive camp, there is nothing to be patient about since you pretty much think he's been a solid PG since he was a rookie. If you are in the net negative camp (like you), you think his poor shooting and scoring has held this team back from day one. There really isn't a "patience" narrative to be found here, so I don't understand the connection.

His point is most fans were willing to give Rubio the longest leash in the world despite all his shortcomings, but we seem unwilling to show the same patience for players that are arguably more talented, like Lavine and Wiggins.

I think Lavine should sit out the next game and have his health re-evaluated. We all see that his level of play has dropped substantially. I don't think we should bench the guy because of this run because it would derail our efforts this season to increase his confidence level. But, I am pretty convinced this starting lineup we be much better off right now slipping in Shabazz at SF in place of Lavine. And i think Lavine would excel in the 2nd unit being the main guy on offense. Long term though, we need to commit to one of these guys to be a starting level player or a 6th man, and i think this season is the perfect opportunity to figure that out. If there did happen to be some nagging injury with Lavine, it'd be a good opportunity to let Shabazz start and experiment with that lineup while we give Lavine an extra-long rest.

That's because some fans felt Rubio was a net positive despite his flaws. In other words, they accept his shortcomings and believe the player that he is (warts and all) is already effective. That's different than saying, "Just you wait, Rubio will help us some day when he learns to shoot like Steve Nash - we just need to be patient".

As for LaVine, I don't believe there is a single person on here calling for his head or saying we should get rid of him for an expiring contract (like some say about Rubio). May be TeamRicky has an extreme position, but otherwise, I think the criticisms are well balanced with the need to be patient as well.