Big O wrote:I voted yes - would have preferred a "maybe" option. For me to be interested Pek needs to be part of the trade. and I'd prefer for Garnet to retire...
Here are the reasons I would consider trading Wiggins now:
1. Win now. By freeing up Pek's salary I would sign Horford and Deng (I think we have the money or could figure it out) Rubio, Butler, Deng, Horford, Towns - you guys are the experts but that looks like a pretty good team with Dunn, Deign, LaVine, Belly and Bazz coming off the bench
2. Wiggins' motor - The guy has sky high potential which I question if he will every fully realize. he shows up for the big games but will he ever show up for the rest of the 82 game season?
3. Team leader - I have started to read rumors about friction between Towns and Wiggins over who is the face of the team. I don't want to see another Starbury situation.
ok, Donning the flame-retardant suit
Has anyone else heard or read any rumors like this? I haven't.
I would be interested to see where you got that also because I have never read anything like that not saying it is not true but I would doubt that
Big O wrote:I voted yes - would have preferred a "maybe" option. For me to be interested Pek needs to be part of the trade. and I'd prefer for Garnet to retire...
Here are the reasons I would consider trading Wiggins now:
1. Win now. By freeing up Pek's salary I would sign Horford and Deng (I think we have the money or could figure it out) Rubio, Butler, Deng, Horford, Towns - you guys are the experts but that looks like a pretty good team with Dunn, Deign, LaVine, Belly and Bazz coming off the bench
2. Wiggins' motor - The guy has sky high potential which I question if he will every fully realize. he shows up for the big games but will he ever show up for the rest of the 82 game season?
3. Team leader - I have started to read rumors about friction between Towns and Wiggins over who is the face of the team. I don't want to see another Starbury situation.
ok, Donning the flame-retardant suit
Has anyone else heard or read any rumors like this? I haven't.
I would be interested to see where you got that also because I have never read anything like that not saying it is not true but I would doubt that
"Straight up now tell me
Is it gonna be you and me together oh oh oh
Are you just having fun
You are so hard to read
You play hide and seek
With your true intentions
If you're only playing games
I'll just have to say--bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye
I've been a fool before
Wouldn't like to get my love caught
In the slammin' door
Are you more than hot for me
Or am I a page in your history-book
I don't mean to make demands
But the word and the deed go hand in hand
How about some information--please"
I saw some speculation from Zach Lowe on the chemistry issues between Butler and the Bulls last year, and if that were true, that would give me some more hesitation on him. Anybody know more about that?
From a pure basketball standpoint, I think I would still go with Butler. He's a very good, versatile, all-around player and he's improved in some key ways every year. Even if he's hit a plateau, it's arguably an All-Star plateau. Would you like a guy who can play as a 2 and a 3 and averaged 20.9 points, 5.3 rebounds, and 4.8 assists with very good defense? Yes, please. And fries.
Wiggins improved his points, FT rate, and FG% last year, so I'm sure he can improve in scoring. And oh my god is he fun to watch. But in other areas (steals, blocks, and assists) he didn't improve at all, or even regressed (rebounding). By the eye test, it did not seem to me that his handles and passing improved last year, or his defense. Those are key skills guys need to have. It took Jimmy Butler awhile to put the big numbers up, but he's consistently improved in those areas (handling, passing, defending) and you could see early on he already had pretty good ball handling skills and the floor vision necessary to make passes. We can't honestly say the same about Wiggins' handles and passing yet. I've got more hope for Wiggins' defense, especially if he plays under Thibs. But I'm concerned about how much Wiggins can and will improve as a ball handler and passer. By contrast, picking up Butler would give us more flexibility to have a guy who can also pass and handle the ball, not to mention defend better right now. Finally, I'm also concerned about how Wiggins often seems to disappear while on the court. It's like sometimes he has a lack of intensity. When he makes a big play, it always stands out because of how athletic he is, but it sometimes also makes you wonder, is he really trying hard all the time? Why doesn't he do stuff like that much more?
Wiggins still has amazing talent, and I love the kid. He's sooo much fun to watch. But there is so much to like about Butler's impact, and there are enough questions about Wiggins' future development, that I'd still trade Wiggins for Butler if basketball were all that mattered. I'm curious about this chemistry issue with Chicago last year. That gives me pause until I learn more.
Would be a major mistake to move Wiggins right now (it won't happen), especially before Thibodeau has the chance to coach him. That's my final thought on this topic.
I just imagine Wiggins becoming a star in Chicago in the weaker Eastern conference and me wanting Thibs fired the second it happens for being an impatient moron. If I'm wrong about Wiggins, I'm wrong, but I'm dying on that island that believes he's going to be a top 10 player in the league with Towns one day.
khans2k5 wrote:I just imagine Wiggins becoming a star in Chicago in the weaker Eastern conference and me wanting Thibs fired the second it happens for being an impatient moron. If I'm wrong about Wiggins, I'm wrong, but I'm dying on that island that believes he's going to be a top 10 player in the league with Towns one day.
When Butler was 21 he was putting up 15.7 ppg in college. When Wiggins was 21 he was in his 2nd year in the NBA putting up over 20ppg and getting to the FT line like a star player. Butler is a superior all around player right now but he also played for a really good coach who happens to coach up guys defensively AND (something that doesn't get mentioned much) obviously LOVES guy who can score (see Rose, Derrick and pretty much any other PG that played big minutes for Thibs in place of Rose) and actually has basically gushed about Wiggins ability to score. The age of 25 was when Butler had his breakout season. That's 4 YEARS AWAY for Wiggins. 4 YEARS. That's a long time in terms of a guy Wiggins age/development. Even at that point he will be 25 which is a year younger than Butler is right now and therefore could continue to develop.
Maybe Wiggins never puts more of an all around game together but I like Khans I'll bet on Wiggins being a really good player. Maybe I won't go top 10 player (that typically gets subjective anyway) but I'll bet on Wiggins talent.
khans2k5 wrote:I just imagine Wiggins becoming a star in Chicago in the weaker Eastern conference and me wanting Thibs fired the second it happens for being an impatient moron. If I'm wrong about Wiggins, I'm wrong, but I'm dying on that island that believes he's going to be a top 10 player in the league with Towns one day.
Boy, you get yourself wrapped around the axle. Nothing has even happened yet!
19 votes declining trading Wig for Butler, and only Drew, Big O and I making the trade (and O has some conditions attached). That means almost all of us think Wig will be a better player than Butler. Wow...if that ends up being true and KAT reaches his ceiling, this club is going to be a dynasty (I'm not saying they won't be).
I was going to post the same poll on the Bulls board to see what they thought about Butler for Wig, but there was already a 24 page thread analyzing yesterday's rumor of Thibs offering #5 for Butler, and I didn't think they wanted another thread sine there was already a lot of discussion about Wig in the thread. I only read about a quarter of their thread, but many posters said they might consider Wig plus #5 for Butler. I didn't get the impression that any Bulls fan was willing to trade Butler for Wig only.
When fans of two different teams have such a gigantic difference of opinion, I have generally found that the answer lies somewhere in the middle...I think that is the case here. The home town love for their own player makes me think they are likely comparable stars (or future stars). I lean slightly toward trading for Butler for the following reasons:
1) I think Wig's poor handle has more to do with size of hands than talent, and that's something that can't be changed. I'm not confident Wig will ever have an above average handle.
2) Pundits have questioned Wig's motor often during his year in college and his two years with the Wolves, while Butler play with a consistently high motor. I'm not saying Wig can't change and develop in this area, but I think it's unlikely.
3) In a previous post, I compared the two players' stats in their respective second years in the NBA, and Butler was far ahead of Wig in the advanced stats...especially on the defensive side of the ball. I think Wig has the athleticism to be a very good defender, but I would bet he never rises to the level of Butler on defense.
4) Butler is in the first year of a 5-year $18 million per year contract. I think Wig will continue to be a very good scorer and will also improve on defense, and project that he will earn a max contract in excess of $25 million per year in 2 years. While that $7 million per year isn't an enormous number, it could be critical in allowing us to keep more of our pieces without going over the lux threshold.
5) If we were able to trade Wig for Butler, I would expect Thibs would aggressively pursue Deng in free agency. A starting wing tandem of Deng/Butler with Zach coming off the bench would be a superb wing rotation...without even considering Bazz or the likely wing we will select at #5.
For the sake of balance, I took into consideration Wig's superior athleticism, and gave him the benefit of the doubt that he will get stronger as he fills out his frame. I also think that Wig will ultimately be a better shooter than Butler (although that hasn't been the case to date). Still, I think I would pull the trigger on trading Wig for Butler.
