Camden wrote:I hate to jump back in this, but Harrison Barnes, Wes Johnson, Ben McLemore are examples of guys who were/are athletic and can shoot (to an extent). They haven't been as great as their hype made them out to be. Surprisingly enough, their weaknesses are similar to Wiggins'. Weak handles and/or conservative mentality on offense.
Wes never shot at a 41% clip from three in the NBA, and although athletic, is nowhere near Wiggins. Anyone who painfully watched both players play should be able to point that out at this point. Harrison Barnes (as a 22 year old) is playing lights out and could easily end up being an all star in Kerr's system when they start dumping players ahead of him in their depth chart due to salary reasons. Barnes had a simpleton coach his first 2 seasons that didn't know how to use him and he was still respectable. But Barnes athleticism doesn't seem on the same level as Wiggins as well. McLemore (as a 21 year old) still has a ton of upside and seems to be progressing nicely. Not sure if it is fair at this point to say that Barnes and McLemore aren't living up to their hype. They are both playing great this year after being given greater opportunity. Somehow the NBA is following the culture of instant gratification that exists in the rest of our society. Developing underclassmen takes time. Wiggins is 19, and is a better athlete, and so far as a rookie a better 3 pt shooter than all 3 of those players. Fair to believe he will project better than all 3 in the end.
I'm with Abe. Yes, it's insane to talk about trading him. But on the other hand, yes, his performance to date has been underwhelming, especially for a #1 pick. It's not like he's a project Center that is still learning the game. He was on Youtube videos as a teenage phenom dating back to when he was 13 years old. It's a bit disconcerting to see how raw he is at times.
And while I think his 3-point shot has very good potential, the sample size is too small to make any conclusions as to whether he's a good long-range shooter yet. And as Abe said, he's gone stone cold of late, as his FG% has been plummeting for a couple weeks now.
As for defense, you have to look at a combination of metrics to paint anything near a full picture, in combination with watching him. I think there is no question he is a willing defender, and that alone is half the battle. And I also like that he takes a conservative, stout approach to defense, meaning he is rarely caught reaching or randomly double-teaming people who really shouldn't be double-teamed. He's sort of the anti-Brewer in this regard. Brew is also a willing defender, but he is a serial gambler that constantly compromises the entire team defense. Wiggins sticks with his guy. He guarded Harden as well as I've seen anyone guard Harden the first time we played Houston. On the other hand, Harden got the best of him in their second matchup. He's not lockdown yet, but I think he'll get there eventually, especially once he learns to be more physical and stay down on pump fakes.
Technically Wiggins hasn't shot 40+% from three either. He's done so in a small sample size.
And I wasn't comparing athlete to athlete. Point was that it takes more than just physical tools to become a star in this league.
Also, neither Barnes nor McLemore are playing to the level they were touted to be. McL is just a second year so he may take jumps, but if he does it'll be because of improved handle. Which somehow comes all the way back around to be a major tool in basketball. Go figure.
Camden wrote:I hate to jump back in this, but Harrison Barnes, Wes Johnson, Ben McLemore are examples of guys who were/are athletic and can shoot (to an extent). They haven't been as great as their hype made them out to be. Surprisingly enough, their weaknesses are similar to Wiggins'. Weak handles and/or conservative mentality on offense.
Wes never shot at a 41% clip from three in the NBA, and although athletic, is nowhere near Wiggins. Anyone who painfully watched both players play should be able to point that out at this point. Harrison Barnes (as a 22 year old) is playing lights out and could easily end up being an all star in Kerr's system when they start dumping players ahead of him in their depth chart due to salary reasons. Barnes had a simpleton coach his first 2 seasons that didn't know how to use him and he was still respectable. But Barnes athleticism doesn't seem on the same level as Wiggins as well. McLemore (as a 21 year old) still has a ton of upside and seems to be progressing nicely. Not sure if it is fair at this point to say that Barnes and McLemore aren't living up to their hype. They are both playing great this year after being given greater opportunity. Somehow the NBA is following the culture of instant gratification that exists in the rest of our society. Developing underclassmen takes time. Wiggins is 19, and is a better athlete, and so far as a rookie a better 3 pt shooter than all 3 of those players. Fair to believe he will project better than all 3 in the end.
Great point. After all, he's taken 29 shots.
Good thing 24 was too small of a sample size.
McLemore started his rookie campaign 10 - 24 (41.7%).
Even 28 is too small of a sample size, too. Barnes started out 11 - 28 (39.2%).
I just don't get what is underwhelming about a rookie who everyone new needed work on his offensive game having ups and downs. One of the areas he was criticized on was his jump shot. Well regardless of sample size you don't shoot 40% from three in the NBA with a bad jumper. His decision making over the last five games was bad, but that stretch included getting very sick and recovering from that. To me his performance should be considered exactly what we expected, regardless of where he was picked. There are a lot of rookies with talent in this class but when the top 10 are all one and done players from now until forever, this is what you get out of 90% of the top tier draft picks in their rookie years. Very few have bucked the trend since the draft has trended toward youth and potential.
thedoper wrote:I just don't get what is underwhelming about a rookie who everyone new needed work on his offensive game having ups and downs. One of the areas he was criticized on was his jump shot. Well regardless of sample size you don't shoot 40% from three in the NBA with a bad jumper. His decision making over the last five games was bad, but that stretch included getting very sick and recovering from that. To me his performance should be considered exactly what we expected, regardless of where he was picked. There are a lot of rookies with talent in this class but when the top 10 are all one and done players from now until forever, this is what you get out of 90% of the top tier draft picks in their rookie years. Very few have bucked the trend since the draft has trended toward youth and potential.
But that's the point. How many transcendent players started off in that 90% group?
The Wolves traded for Wiggins to be more than an average rookie... or even at the top end of that 90%. For the team to finally make the playoffs, or even get to .500 for the first time in 10+ years, Wiggins has to be a good player.
John Wall
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Durant
Recent #1 or #2 draft picks. They produced out of the gate and you knew instantly that they were destined for bigger and better things. That's not to say Wiggins can't do it too. But he's shown more similarities to Darius Miles at this point.
We're all hoping he's just a bit rawer than most and that brighter days are ahead.
Camden wrote:Technically Wiggins hasn't shot 40+% from three either. He's done so in a small sample size.
And I wasn't comparing athlete to athlete. Point was that it takes more than just physical tools to become a star in this league.
Also, neither Barnes nor McLemore are playing to the level they were touted to be. McL is just a second year so he may take jumps, but if he does it'll be because of improved handle. Which somehow comes all the way back around to be a major tool in basketball. Go figure.
Harrison Barnes was picked 7th, so whatever was being touted was clearly quenched by draft day. McLemore was part of a draft class that was being called one of the worst in NBA history. They are playing exactly to what they are touted to be, talented players with potential who may be all stars one day. Both players have taken jumps and seem to be right on track with that projection based on their year to year progress. I suspect Wiggins will improve his deficiencies and make jumps as well. Everyone knew of his weaknesses going into the draft which were well documented, he seems to be a stronger outside shooter than advertised which is just a bonus. Being an super athlete with a shot can be a great foundation for an NBA player. It will take more for him to be an all star sure, but anyone who is disappointing that he hasn't just immediately developed those skills is unrealistic about the type of basketball player you get at 19. All 19 year olds have many things in their games to work on. Your boy Jabari in contrast cant shoot a lick outside of 15 feet. It makes no sense to think that he will be able to develop a better jumper but someone as talented as Wiggins wont improve his dribbling and shot selection.
Camden wrote:I hate to jump back in this, but Harrison Barnes, Wes Johnson, Ben McLemore are examples of guys who were/are athletic and can shoot (to an extent). They haven't been as great as their hype made them out to be. Surprisingly enough, their weaknesses are similar to Wiggins'. Weak handles and/or conservative mentality on offense.
Wes never shot at a 41% clip from three in the NBA, and although athletic, is nowhere near Wiggins. Anyone who painfully watched both players play should be able to point that out at this point. Harrison Barnes (as a 22 year old) is playing lights out and could easily end up being an all star in Kerr's system when they start dumping players ahead of him in their depth chart due to salary reasons. Barnes had a simpleton coach his first 2 seasons that didn't know how to use him and he was still respectable. But Barnes athleticism doesn't seem on the same level as Wiggins as well. McLemore (as a 21 year old) still has a ton of upside and seems to be progressing nicely. Not sure if it is fair at this point to say that Barnes and McLemore aren't living up to their hype. They are both playing great this year after being given greater opportunity. Somehow the NBA is following the culture of instant gratification that exists in the rest of our society. Developing underclassmen takes time. Wiggins is 19, and is a better athlete, and so far as a rookie a better 3 pt shooter than all 3 of those players. Fair to believe he will project better than all 3 in the end.
Great point. After all, he's taken 29 shots.
Good thing 24 was too small of a sample size.
McLemore started his rookie campaign 10 - 24 (41.7%).
Even 28 is too small of a sample size, too. Barnes started out 11 - 28 (39.2%).
Barnes and McLemore are keeping that clip up with more shots. They are playing great, look at their stats. Wiggins shot looks nice. I can't say the same thing about Wes.
Camden wrote:I hate to jump back in this, but Harrison Barnes, Wes Johnson, Ben McLemore are examples of guys who were/are athletic and can shoot (to an extent). They haven't been as great as their hype made them out to be. Surprisingly enough, their weaknesses are similar to Wiggins'. Weak handles and/or conservative mentality on offense.
Wes never shot at a 41% clip from three in the NBA, and although athletic, is nowhere near Wiggins. Anyone who painfully watched both players play should be able to point that out at this point. Harrison Barnes (as a 22 year old) is playing lights out and could easily end up being an all star in Kerr's system when they start dumping players ahead of him in their depth chart due to salary reasons. Barnes had a simpleton coach his first 2 seasons that didn't know how to use him and he was still respectable. But Barnes athleticism doesn't seem on the same level as Wiggins as well. McLemore (as a 21 year old) still has a ton of upside and seems to be progressing nicely. Not sure if it is fair at this point to say that Barnes and McLemore aren't living up to their hype. They are both playing great this year after being given greater opportunity. Somehow the NBA is following the culture of instant gratification that exists in the rest of our society. Developing underclassmen takes time. Wiggins is 19, and is a better athlete, and so far as a rookie a better 3 pt shooter than all 3 of those players. Fair to believe he will project better than all 3 in the end.
Great point. After all, he's taken 29 shots.
Good thing 24 was too small of a sample size.
McLemore started his rookie campaign 10 - 24 (41.7%).
Even 28 is too small of a sample size, too. Barnes started out 11 - 28 (39.2%).
Barnes and McLemore are keeping that clip up with more shots. They are playing great, look at their stats. Wiggins shot looks nice. I can't say the same thing about Wes.
thedoper wrote:I just don't get what is underwhelming about a rookie who everyone new needed work on his offensive game having ups and downs. One of the areas he was criticized on was his jump shot. Well regardless of sample size you don't shoot 40% from three in the NBA with a bad jumper. His decision making over the last five games was bad, but that stretch included getting very sick and recovering from that. To me his performance should be considered exactly what we expected, regardless of where he was picked. There are a lot of rookies with talent in this class but when the top 10 are all one and done players from now until forever, this is what you get out of 90% of the top tier draft picks in their rookie years. Very few have bucked the trend since the draft has trended toward youth and potential.
But that's the point. How many transcendent players started off in that 90% group?
The Wolves traded for Wiggins to be more than an average rookie... or even at the top end of that 90%. For the team to finally make the playoffs, or even get to .500 for the first time in 10+ years, Wiggins has to be a good player.
John Wall
Derrick Rose
Blake Griffin
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Durant
Recent #1 or #2 draft picks. They produced out of the gate and you knew instantly that they were destined for bigger and better things. That's not to say Wiggins can't do it too. But he's shown more similarities to Darius Miles at this point.
We're all hoping he's just a bit rawer than most and that brighter days are ahead.
Wiggins has also shown similarities to Kobe and TMac as 19 year olds.
Durant and Irving were more polished players, everyone agreed on that during their college careers. In contrast everyone agreed that Wiggins was not as polished. He has been a more than average rookie, but he has not been at Durant and Irving's level. As for the rest:
John Wall was 20.
Rose was 20.
Blake Griffen was 21.
So if this is a thread about whether or not Wiggins deserved the #1 pick then there are still questions. But when did you want the team to get to .500? Didn't happen for Durant, Griffen, Iving or Wall. Rose got his team to 500 exactly as a rookie.
