Teams that won a title without Top 5 Player

[Coolbreeze44]

Naz Reid has been here longer than anyone. If 7 years in, nobody know what he is, shouldn't someone be held accountable for that? If you're looking for a 2nd guy to go with Ant, shouldn't that have been explored by now instead of wasting time with someone everyone knew wasn't gonna be good enough in Randle? The fact that Naz and JMac are here and some of us still think there's this untapped potential is a massive indictment on the front office and the coach because turning to them now feels like they ran out of ideas.

Also, I haven't been a proponent of trading JMac or Naz or Beringer. What I'm saying is you need a better player than all three of them to be part of that core for it to be good enough because I've drawn a strong conclusion on JMac and Naz and pretty confident on Beringer's future.

The difference between the Knicks and Wolves is simple: the Knicks have never had to worry about Jalen Brunson's desire to stick around. Up to this point we haven't had to with Ant either, but if things don't seem to progress, by the time Ant's 28 he's not gonna be leading us to anything. He'll be somewhere else and we'll be talking about how these Hawks picks might be something one day and because Connelly has depleted us of everything else, it's all we'll have to hold onto. Connelly has to figure out how to get players with actual futures here and Finch has to go back to doing what got him this job in the first place. If he doesn't, he can step.

If Ant stays, great, if he wants to go somewhere else, great. Least of my worries.

Great, but once you're down to just whatever you get back from Ant, you won't have a product worth caring about for years. Without the mission of tanking to achieve that goal, those seasons are gonna be so miserable that they can't recover from it.

He's simply not as great as you think he is. You will eventually figure that out.

[AussieWolf3]

There is a fundamental misunderstanding some folk have regarding the conversation about the "core" players, specifically Jaden and Naz.

Saying that Ant, Jaden, Naz and Joan are the teams core is not a suggestion that those are and should be the four best players going into 26'-27'. It's also not a suggestion that roster changes shouldn't happen, it's actually quite the opposite.

There are those of us here who believe that roster construction and role opportunities have limited Naz and Jaden from really growing into their optimal roles. This seems rather obvious to me, but apparently not to everyone else. Which fair enough, we can disagree on what the conclusion is here but the paradigm is pretty simple--- construct a roster that involves and compliments these players as best you can, particularly the older three cause I'm not sure how strongly Joan potential should be weighed in the team champ window.

If you just watched the Knicks win a championship and don't see how a balanced and complimentary roster lifts everyone to a sum that is greater than their parts, so much so that you're hoisting the O'Brian.... I don't know what to tell you. Not a single member of the Knicks is a top 5 player and I'd be hard pressed to put any in the top 12, yet they just completed one of the most impressive and dominant playoff runs of the modern era.

[WildWolf2813]

If Ant stays, great, if he wants to go somewhere else, great. Least of my worries.

Great, but once you're down to just whatever you get back from Ant, you won't have a product worth caring about for years. Without the mission of tanking to achieve that goal, those seasons are gonna be so miserable that they can't recover from it.

He's simply not as great as you think he is. You will eventually figure that out.

you don't have a better alternative than hoping and praying. That's what the rest of the board believes you're in denial of.

[rapsuperstar31]

If Ant stays, great, if he wants to go somewhere else, great. Least of my worries.

Great, but once you're down to just whatever you get back from Ant, you won't have a product worth caring about for years. Without the mission of tanking to achieve that goal, those seasons are gonna be so miserable that they can't recover from it.

He's simply not as great as you think he is. You will eventually figure that out.

He's not as consistent as you would like. He has done things that no Wolves player has ever done, including KG. Hell even just the 55 point game against San Antonio in the regular season when he dropped 26 in the 4th quarter and dropped a couple of perfect dimes in the 4th even in a heart breaking loss when we got screwed by the whistle when Joan didn't get the correct foul call. Half the Wolves fans said KAT will never be a winner...wrong! Many said Wiggins would never win anything...wrong! Ant has all the talent to win at the highest level as he continues to evolve into his prime, and he's still 2-6 years away from hitting that magic 26-30 superstar championship window. If Ant gets to 30 and he wasn't won a title here yet, move him it's probably not going to happen at that point here.

[AussieWolf3]

I swear to God can we not derail another thread arguing with cool and FNG about how good or not good Ant is?

[Q-is-here]

There is a fundamental misunderstanding some folk have regarding the conversation about the "core" players, specifically Jaden and Naz.

Saying that Ant, Jaden, Naz and Joan are the teams core is not a suggestion that those are and should be the four best players going into 26'-27'. It's also not a suggestion that roster changes shouldn't happen, it's actually quite the opposite.

There are those of us here who believe that roster construction and role opportunities have limited Naz and Jaden from really growing into their optimal roles. This seems rather obvious to me, but apparently not to everyone else. Which fair enough, we can disagree on what the conclusion is here but the paradigm is pretty simple--- construct a roster that involves and compliments these players as best you can, particularly the older three cause I'm not sure how strongly Joan potential should be weighed in the team champ window.

If you just watched the Knicks win a championship and don't see how a balanced and complimentary roster lifts everyone to a sum that is greater than their parts, so much so that you're hoisting the O'Brian.... I don't know what to tell you. Not a single member of the Knicks is a top 5 player and I'd be hard pressed to put any in the top 12, yet they just completed one of the most impressive and dominant playoff runs of the modern era.

Exactly Aussie and it's the whole point of this thread - that indeed an NBA team CAN win a title without having one of the five or six or seven best players in the NBA. And it's not just a one-off. Heck, the Knicks bench wasn't all that impressive either.

Obviously in an ideal world you have a Giannis or Jokic or SGA. May be Ant gets to that level, may be not. But he's firmly in the top 12 and is generally a playoff riser when he's not hurt. And I still think it's possible for us to get Giannis!

Connelly has his work cut out for him and he hasn't done this franchise any favors with his draft record thus far. But he's been shrewd with his trades and we know he's not afraid to do some bold things.

[Coolbreeze44]

Great, but once you're down to just whatever you get back from Ant, you won't have a product worth caring about for years. Without the mission of tanking to achieve that goal, those seasons are gonna be so miserable that they can't recover from it.

He's simply not as great as you think he is. You will eventually figure that out.

He's not as consistent as you would like. He has done things that no Wolves player has ever done, including KG. Hell even just the 55 point game against San Antonio in the regular season when he dropped 26 in the 4th quarter and dropped a couple of perfect dimes in the 4th even in a heart breaking loss when we got screwed by the whistle when Joan didn't get the correct foul call. Half the Wolves fans said KAT will never be a winner...wrong! Many said Wiggins would never win anything...wrong! Ant has all the talent to win at the highest level as he continues to evolve into his prime, and he's still 2-6 years away from hitting that magic 26-30 superstar championship window. If Ant gets to 30 and he wasn't won a title here yet, move him it's probably not going to happen at that point here.

He can be magnificent at times but he's missing something that I don't believe comes with age. I'm not saying he's as good as he's going to get, but he isn't a full alpha. I think he can be a really good player on a championship team though.

[Coolbreeze44]

I swear to God can we not derail another thread arguing with cool and FNG about how good or not good Ant is?

All I said is I'm great with him being here, and great with whatever he would bring back.

[AussieWolf3]

I swear to God can we not derail another thread arguing with cool and FNG about how good or not good Ant is?

All I said is I'm great with him being here, and great with whatever he would bring back.

My comment wasn't directed at you. Anytime you or others indicate a negative opinion on Ant, multiple people need to make the same case we've all made over and over.
I've done it plenty too, and obviously it's a fine conversation to have, it's just frustrating when it permeates nearly every thread.

Whatever, I'll shut it, cause no one wants the conversation to be policed lol. Obviously no one needs permission from me to talk their talk

[Monster]

There is a fundamental misunderstanding some folk have regarding the conversation about the "core" players, specifically Jaden and Naz.

Saying that Ant, Jaden, Naz and Joan are the teams core is not a suggestion that those are and should be the four best players going into 26'-27'. It's also not a suggestion that roster changes shouldn't happen, it's actually quite the opposite.

There are those of us here who believe that roster construction and role opportunities have limited Naz and Jaden from really growing into their optimal roles. This seems rather obvious to me, but apparently not to everyone else. Which fair enough, we can disagree on what the conclusion is here but the paradigm is pretty simple--- construct a roster that involves and compliments these players as best you can, particularly the older three cause I'm not sure how strongly Joan potential should be weighed in the team champ window.

If you just watched the Knicks win a championship and don't see how a balanced and complimentary roster lifts everyone to a sum that is greater than their parts, so much so that you're hoisting the O'Brian.... I don't know what to tell you. Not a single member of the Knicks is a top 5 player and I'd be hard pressed to put any in the top 12, yet they just completed one of the most impressive and dominant playoff runs of the modern era.

I will say that the Knicks do have a talented roster. Brunson Hart Bridges OG Towns is a pretty good starting 5. Who is the worst player in that group? Hart Bridges? Robinson is a a starting level center when healthy coming off the bench. Untill the finals Shamet was really good for them. Alvarado is a small guard that doesn't have to score to be worthwhile he is sorta like a less impactful Josh Hart type guy he just does a lot of shit. He averaged over 7 rebounds per 36 in the finals.

But back to your point. Often the team that wins the finals is simply the team (with a certain level of talent) that plays as the best team. Last year's finals had 2 of those teams with talent (plus depth) that played well as teams in OKC and Indiana. Unfortunately injuries became a factor there.

So the question now becomes how can the Wolves acquire and configure the most amount of talent and put it all together? There are a variety of opinions here. It seems clear something significant is going to happen to this roster. If nothing else Connelly's track record as Wolves head decision maker shows he is gonna do something fairly big. It seems pretty clear Randle is gonna be moved which makes sense to me. I'd also guess (speculating here and through much of the rest of this paragragh) that Connelly and maybe even Randle knows there is a team or maybe even a couple teams that want Randle on their roster. I'm not saying teams are gonna give up something wild to make that happen but there is probably options. Maybe Connelly got a pretty good feel for the Randle Market a few months ago at the trade deadline. Maybe Randle getting dealt not for a star at the deadline was something that wasn't too far from happening.

The reality is that of some of these younger guys even including Edwards don't take steps up this team won't make it. Maybe as you have alluded to it's time to let some of these guys be the vets that lead the way now. Put it even more on them but keep some guys around like bringing back Conley and I would keep Rudy too. He actually fits with what you are suggesting. It's not Rudy is some guy you want to run your offense through and he is clearly a flawed player with the ball in his hands but I definitely thought he made a small but somewhat worthwhile improvement in making plays throwing the ball out to guys at times last year.

I'm looking forward to what happens. I have some sort of weird optimism about what we might end up with. I know that sounds a little crazy despite everything but I think with the likely movement this off-season there is going to be options/pathways to get some things done and Connelly isn't afraid to make moves.