Teams that won a title without Top 5 Player

[Lipoli390]

There is a fundamental misunderstanding some folk have regarding the conversation about the "core" players, specifically Jaden and Naz.

Saying that Ant, Jaden, Naz and Joan are the teams core is not a suggestion that those are and should be the four best players going into 26'-27'. It's also not a suggestion that roster changes shouldn't happen, it's actually quite the opposite.

There are those of us here who believe that roster construction and role opportunities have limited Naz and Jaden from really growing into their optimal roles. This seems rather obvious to me, but apparently not to everyone else. Which fair enough, we can disagree on what the conclusion is here but the paradigm is pretty simple--- construct a roster that involves and compliments these players as best you can, particularly the older three cause I'm not sure how strongly Joan potential should be weighed in the team champ window.

If you just watched the Knicks win a championship and don't see how a balanced and complimentary roster lifts everyone to a sum that is greater than their parts, so much so that you're hoisting the O'Brian.... I don't know what to tell you. Not a single member of the Knicks is a top 5 player and I'd be hard pressed to put any in the top 12, yet they just completed one of the most impressive and dominant playoff runs of the modern era.

Best post in this thread, Aussie. I agree with you completely. A couple more more thoughts:

First, while Ant’s probably not a top 5 player right now, he’s certainly a top 15 players right player, perhaps a top 10 guy right now and he has the potential to eventually be considered a top 5 player. But I’ll say this. SGA, Jokic, Steph Curry, etc. didn’t enter the League as top five players and it took them years in the League before you could reasonably identify them as top 5 or top 7 or top 3 players in the League. Ant won’t turn 25 until August. He’s significantly more talented than Brunson who didn’t win a title until age 29 and didn’t have his break-out season until age 25 when he averaged 16.3 points, 4.8 assists and 3.9 rebounds.

Second, the top players on championship teams are rarely under 25. SGA didn’t win his first title until he was 26. Curry didn’t win the prize until he was 27. The great LeBron didn’t win his first title until he was 27 and of course MJ didn’t until he was 28.

So I don’t think we can write-off Ant as a guy who will never be at that elite top 5 level on par with players like Curry, Jokic, and SGA. Ant raising his game even further is an important factor to consider and history tells us it’s likely he will. The beauty of having a player with Ant’s talent, in combination with other very good similar vintage players like Jaden, Naz and Ayo, is that it gives us a core around which we can build a championship contender. We already have two trips to the Western Conference Finals with three of those four a key members of the rotation.

[Q-is-here]

There is a fundamental misunderstanding some folk have regarding the conversation about the "core" players, specifically Jaden and Naz.

Saying that Ant, Jaden, Naz and Joan are the teams core is not a suggestion that those are and should be the four best players going into 26'-27'. It's also not a suggestion that roster changes shouldn't happen, it's actually quite the opposite.

There are those of us here who believe that roster construction and role opportunities have limited Naz and Jaden from really growing into their optimal roles. This seems rather obvious to me, but apparently not to everyone else. Which fair enough, we can disagree on what the conclusion is here but the paradigm is pretty simple--- construct a roster that involves and compliments these players as best you can, particularly the older three cause I'm not sure how strongly Joan potential should be weighed in the team champ window.

If you just watched the Knicks win a championship and don't see how a balanced and complimentary roster lifts everyone to a sum that is greater than their parts, so much so that you're hoisting the O'Brian.... I don't know what to tell you. Not a single member of the Knicks is a top 5 player and I'd be hard pressed to put any in the top 12, yet they just completed one of the most impressive and dominant playoff runs of the modern era.

Best post in this thread, Aussie. I agree with you completely. A couple more more thoughts:

First, while Ant’s probably not a top 5 player right now, he’s certainly a top 15 players right player, perhaps a top 10 guy right now and he has the potential to eventually be considered a top 5 player. But I’ll say this. SGA, Jokic, Steph Curry, etc. didn’t enter the League as top five players and it took them years in the League before you could reasonably identify them as top 5 or top 7 or top 3 players in the League. Ant won’t turn 25 until August. He’s significantly more talented than Brunson who didn’t win a title until age 29 and didn’t have his break-out season until age 25 when he averaged 16.3 points, 4.8 assists and 3.9 rebounds.

Second, the top players on championship teams are rarely under 25. SGA didn’t win his first title until he was 26. Curry didn’t win the prize until he was 27. The great LeBron didn’t win his first title until he was 27 and of course MJ didn’t until he was 28.

So I don’t think we can write-off Ant as a guy who will never be at that elite top 5 level on par with players like Curry, Jokic, and SGA. Ant raising his game even further is an important factor to consider and history tells us it’s likely he will. The beauty of having a player with Ant’s talent, in combination with other very good similar vintage players like Jaden, Naz and Ayo, is that it gives us a core around which we can build a championship contender. We already have two trips to the Western Conference Finals with three of those four a key members of the rotation.

You are absolutely right Lip. I think rather than focusing on Ant's flaws (and he indeed does have flaws), we should just accept him for the player he is and build a team with him where all the parts compliment each other. Jaden, Naz, Ayo, and Ant are complimentary parts. Rudy is a bit fuzzier to me going forward.

If Ant eventually grows into a Top 5 player, then great. But if not, this whole thread is dedicated to teams that have won a title without a Top 5 player. Connelly's task at hand is the same regardless.

[rapsuperstar31]

In an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Rudy, Kept KAT, instead of Rudy we traded for OG and Nembhard with all of those draft picks. That seems like the right balance around Ant similar to how some of the top teams are constructed. Nembhard, Ant, Jaden, OG, Kat starting lineup. Never going to happen now, but a similar lineup to this seems like the right direction for an Ant team. No major 2nd star there, but the right role players and defense.

[rapsuperstar31]

Getting back to the main purpose of this threads discussion, winning it without a top 5 player. Where was Brunson at 24 years old? He was in his third year in the league in Dallas, averaged 12.6 ppg, they lost in the first round despite playing with who is considered a top 3 player in the league Luka, and Dallas opted not to extend him on a cheapish deal which gave him one more season there at 25 years old before he moved onto the Knicks.

[AussieWolf3]

In an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Rudy, Kept KAT, instead of Rudy we traded for OG and Nembhard with all of those draft picks. That seems like the right balance around Ant similar to how some of the top teams are constructed. Nembhard, Ant, Jaden, OG, Kat starting lineup. Never going to happen now, but a similar lineup to this seems like the right direction for an Ant team. No major 2nd star there, but the right role players and defense.

Sabonis
Naz
Jaden
Ayo
Ant

??? Get me herb Jones and I like it better I think, or Ant steps up again as a defender. I don't like Ayo POA defense that much tho, it's ok but I want elite

[Monster]

A couple things that I think get lost a little bit on Edwards:

I improved again this year. He was more efficient while in some cases taking less efficient shots than he did making him a more diverse scorer. He did that the previous year becoming one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. He increased his FTA by 1 a game. He scored more point this year taking less shots all while in some cases having to do more on offense than he did in previous seasons. He improved again and has pretty much every season.

His ability to return from injury when he could have been like no I'll make a business decision and wait it out. That is no small thing and shows the guy wants to play. Jon K wrote an article about all he did to make it happen and suggested these injuries he had might be the thing that is the lightbulb moment for Edwards to start doing all the things to get his body right that he didn't do before because...well it didn't seem like he needed to.

So Edwards still is on an upwards trajectory while there are absolutely flaws in his game and other considerations as well. Will he step up and become a more consistent defender? He absolutely has the potential to be an all NBA team guy. Will he lock in on what's important on and off the court? Will he improve his BBIQ? Will the Wolves make some moves this off-season to help facilitate these things? Adding the right ball handlers and player makers and "connective tissue" as Finch described it could help. What is Edwards working on this off-season? It seems like he has accomplished his task each off-season that is set out for him.

[60WinTim]

A couple things that I think get lost a little bit on Edwards:

I improved again this year. He was more efficient while in some cases taking less efficient shots than he did making him a more diverse scorer. He did that the previous year becoming one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. He increased his FTA by 1 a game. He scored more point this year taking less shots all while in some cases having to do more on offense than he did in previous seasons. He improved again and has pretty much every season.

His ability to return from injury when he could have been like no I'll make a business decision and wait it out. That is no small thing and shows the guy wants to play. Jon K wrote an article about all he did to make it happen and suggested these injuries he had might be the thing that is the lightbulb moment for Edwards to start doing all the things to get his body right that he didn't do before because...well it didn't seem like he needed to.

So Edwards still is on an upwards trajectory while there are absolutely flaws in his game and other considerations as well. Will he step up and become a more consistent defender? He absolutely has the potential to be an all NBA team guy. Will he lock in on what's important on and off the court? Will he improve his BBIQ? Will the Wolves make some moves this off-season to help facilitate these things? Adding the right ball handlers and player makers and "connective tissue" as Finch described it could help. What is Edwards working on this off-season? It seems like he has accomplished his task each off-season that is set out for him.

And you didn't even mention how much his clutch time play improved. It was a really big leap. While some see ANT plateauing, I, and many others, think there's a lot more he can achieve.

[WildWolf2813]

A couple things that I think get lost a little bit on Edwards:

I improved again this year. He was more efficient while in some cases taking less efficient shots than he did making him a more diverse scorer. He did that the previous year becoming one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. He increased his FTA by 1 a game. He scored more point this year taking less shots all while in some cases having to do more on offense than he did in previous seasons. He improved again and has pretty much every season.

His ability to return from injury when he could have been like no I'll make a business decision and wait it out. That is no small thing and shows the guy wants to play. Jon K wrote an article about all he did to make it happen and suggested these injuries he had might be the thing that is the lightbulb moment for Edwards to start doing all the things to get his body right that he didn't do before because...well it didn't seem like he needed to.

So Edwards still is on an upwards trajectory while there are absolutely flaws in his game and other considerations as well. Will he step up and become a more consistent defender? He absolutely has the potential to be an all NBA team guy. Will he lock in on what's important on and off the court? Will he improve his BBIQ? Will the Wolves make some moves this off-season to help facilitate these things? Adding the right ball handlers and player makers and "connective tissue" as Finch described it could help. What is Edwards working on this off-season? It seems like he has accomplished his task each off-season that is set out for him.

I don't know if I'd call it improving if he's trading one skill for another.

His scoring and methods to score have improved, but it's come at the expense of his defense to where it's tough to call him a two way player. It would help if someone offensively helped take the load off of him (think of how Brunson is the lead guy in the 4th quarter, but OG was there to help score and over the course of the season, their guys were there to make timely shots. This team just needs a reliable 2nd guy to not make everything come down to whether Ant makes a long distance shot.

[WildWolf2813]

In an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Rudy, Kept KAT, instead of Rudy we traded for OG and Nembhard with all of those draft picks. That seems like the right balance around Ant similar to how some of the top teams are constructed. Nembhard, Ant, Jaden, OG, Kat starting lineup. Never going to happen now, but a similar lineup to this seems like the right direction for an Ant team. No major 2nd star there, but the right role players and defense.

trading for OG would have cost you Jaden.

[AussieWolf3]

So I think there are plenty of valid arguments to make to say that Ant could be a top 5 player next year, however, in the spirit of the thread I think we still need ask what can this team do to win a championship if we assume that he isn't that.

Small digression here, but the objective evidence is that Ant is not a top 5 player. Coming into the season, there were those who would have said he was, but there is simply no arguing that Wemby has knocked him down to at least the 6th best player -I would personally regard him lower than that. Outside of subjective rankings, he misses the mark in impact metrics (net rating, vorp, rapm, +/-, epm), he still hasn't made an all NBA 1st team and probably wouldn't have this year if he could have, and has never finished top 5 in MVP votes. The most favorable metric for Edwards is Darko's DPM, which is imo the best catch all metric and the most predictive; this stat tells a confusing story as well. In April at the end of the RS, Ant had an elite 4.9 DPM which iirc was good for 4th or 5th in the league- by post season's end he has dropped all the way to 3.6, a good number, but not exactly a something you see from a championship number 1. Funny enough, all three of Kat, Brunsen and OG finished with a 3.6 DPM --- pretty rare to see 3 guys from the same team finish that high. Anyway all of that to say, at best, Ant is measurably, just outside the top 5 of the league.

So how does this team maneuver a good but not elite roster to well.... An elite one?