Teams that won a title without Top 5 Player

[AussieWolf3]

In an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Rudy, Kept KAT, instead of Rudy we traded for OG and Nembhard with all of those draft picks. That seems like the right balance around Ant similar to how some of the top teams are constructed. Nembhard, Ant, Jaden, OG, Kat starting lineup. Never going to happen now, but a similar lineup to this seems like the right direction for an Ant team. No major 2nd star there, but the right role players and defense.

trading for OG would have cost you Jaden.

Unlikely. NY gave up Barret, Quickly and a 2nd round pick for OG. In the hypothetical above, you still have all of those players and draft picks pre Rudy trade- plenty there to add someone who was clearly not of the same caliber as Rudy at that time without giving up someone like Jaden.

Probably could have done a similar collection of players as were given up for Rudy and less draft picks

[60WinTim]

So I think there are plenty of valid arguments to make to say that Ant could be a top 5 player next year, however, in the spirit of the thread I think we still need ask what can this team do to win a championship if we assume that he isn't that.

Small digression here, but the objective evidence is that Ant is not a top 5 player. Coming into the season, there were those who would have said he was, but there is simply no arguing that Wemby has knocked him down to at least the 6th best player -I would personally regard him lower than that. Outside of subjective rankings, he misses the mark in impact metrics (net rating, vorp, rapm, +/-, epm), he still hasn't made an all NBA 1st team and probably wouldn't have this year if he could have, and has never finished top 5 in MVP votes. The most favorable metric for Edwards is Darko's DPM, which is imo the best catch all metric and the most predictive; this stat tells a confusing story as well. In April at the end of the RS, Ant had an elite 4.9 DPM which iirc was good for 4th or 5th in the league- by post season's end he has dropped all the way to 3.6, a good number, but not exactly a something you see from a championship number 1. Funny enough, all three of Kat, Brunsen and OG finished with a 3.6 DPM --- pretty rare to see 3 guys from the same team finish that high. Anyway all of that to say, at best, Ant is measurably, just outside the top 5 of the league.

So how does this team maneuver a good but not elite roster to well.... An elite one?

ANT has the tools to creep into the top 5. He clearly was not sniffing top 5 last season. Here is my list of "whys", and why he can turn it around this coming season:

• Health. He missed a quarter of the season! And hampered in some of the later games in the season when he did play. It sounds like an offseason focus for him is improving the health of his ankles, knees and hips. That bodes well for better health next season.

• Lead Guard. This was a failed experiment. I haven't heard anyone in the organization say it wasn't a failed experiment, although Finch said the experience ought to pay dividends for ANT down the road. Adding more ball-handling will help ANT focus on the things he does well, and also engage other players in the offense.

• Defense. I suspect health and lead guard duties contributed to his inconsistent defense. With both those things addressed, and knowing it was a shortcoming, maybe he'll be more consistent on the defensive end.

Those are things ANT can control. As for the roster makeup, that is for TC to control. Randle is the obvious scapegoat. With the team making it all the way to the conference finals, TC chose the "run-it-back" mold last offseason. But it was fools gold, especially with Randle. Randle was very good in the first two series, but he, and the team, were aided by playing teams with little rim protection, not to mention their stars being banged up (Luka, Reeves and Steph). The OKC series showed our true colors, but those first two series wins convinced TC to run-it-back. We know changes are coming! Hopefully that gets us closer to an elite roster.

[AussieWolf3]

I agree that he has the tools to do it, but the constraints of the thread are evaluating when and how teams have won without such a player. The evidence seems pretty resounding that what is required is a complimentary roster with a clear identity and allocations of roles. In addition to that, a relatively even distribution of talent in also evident

[FNG]

A couple things that I think get lost a little bit on Edwards:

I improved again this year. He was more efficient while in some cases taking less efficient shots than he did making him a more diverse scorer. He did that the previous year becoming one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. He increased his FTA by 1 a game. He scored more point this year taking less shots all while in some cases having to do more on offense than he did in previous seasons. He improved again and has pretty much every season.

His ability to return from injury when he could have been like no I'll make a business decision and wait it out. That is no small thing and shows the guy wants to play. Jon K wrote an article about all he did to make it happen and suggested these injuries he had might be the thing that is the lightbulb moment for Edwards to start doing all the things to get his body right that he didn't do before because...well it didn't seem like he needed to.

So Edwards still is on an upwards trajectory while there are absolutely flaws in his game and other considerations as well. Will he step up and become a more consistent defender? He absolutely has the potential to be an all NBA team guy. Will he lock in on what's important on and off the court? Will he improve his BBIQ? Will the Wolves make some moves this off-season to help facilitate these things? Adding the right ball handlers and player makers and "connective tissue" as Finch described it could help. What is Edwards working on this off-season? It seems like he has accomplished his task each off-season that is set out for him.

I don't know if I'd call it improving if he's trading one skill for another.

His scoring and methods to score have improved, but it's come at the expense of his defense to where it's tough to call him a two way player. It would help if someone offensively helped take the load off of him (think of how Brunson is the lead guy in the 4th quarter, but OG was there to help score and over the course of the season, their guys were there to make timely shots. This team just needs a reliable 2nd guy to not make everything come down to whether Ant makes a long distance shot.

Ant is a complex player for sure, and that's why a frank discussion of his positive areas and his negative areas is helpful in understanding where this team is right now...even if some posters are uncomfortable with any criticism of our highest paid player(not an unusual thing for a typical fan...we once had a poster here who would practically have a conniption fit if anyone dared to criticize DLo!)). There's no question that Ant improved in some areas this season, and also no question with most analysts that follow the team that certain aspects of his game got worse. For those who value VORP as a good indicator of value, his dropped from 4.6 to 3.5 (much of that can be attributed to playing fewer games, but his VORP/game still decreased...and I want a player his age to improve each year in his overall game).

Improved areas :
Clutch play: Ant has struggled in this area, but really showed improvement early in the season (despite seeming to revert closer to the mean late in the season). I don't have the data, but I have to believe his clutch shooting percentage for the season increased nicely, and that's important for a guy who wants to take the last shot.
Midrange game: While some coaches and players hate the midrange game (has Naz ever taken one?), Ant called it out as an area he wanted to improve in over the summer. And he did...58% of his shots this season were 2-pointers compared to only 49.7% last season, and more importantly his shooting percentage on 2's went from 50% to 55%, with every specific category showing improvement. As a result, even though coaches preach "3's and free's" as the path to shooting efficiency, Ant's TS% improved from 59.5 to a career best 61.7.
Leadership: While I still want Ant to exhibit the maturity and gravitas of leaders like Brunson and SGA, there were reports that he improved in this area...more vocal in huddles, for instance. I think he is going to continue to improve in this area as he matures.

Areas where he got worse:

Defense: I don't know one analyst that follows the Wolves closely that didn't think Ant was much worse on defense this season. Some of it was effort, and some of it was just not paying attention in help defense. This is an area that really frustrates fans like me who want the Wolves to be better, because unlike a guy like Jalen Brunson, Ant seems to have all the tools to be a plus defender...he just went in the wrong direction this season.

Doing what the coaches want: How many times did we hear Rudy or Finchy, or even Ant himself, say "the coaches put together a good game plan...we just didn't follow it"? So frustrating for us fans after a loss, and even more so for the coaches. I think we all agree that players win games for the most part, not coaches. But the Knicks are a terrific example of how a team can improve if the coaches suggest a different style and the players follow it. Can Ant do this? Time will tell, I guess.

Getting back to the thread theme, yes...a team can win without a top 5 player. I would argue that not only do the Knicks not have a top 5 player, they don't have a player with the potential to be a top 5 2-way player...and yet they won a chip. The frustrating thing for me is that Ant has the potential to be a top 5 guy, but is still far from getting there. And it would be easier for the Wolves to win a chip if Ant did improve enough to be a top 5 guy.

[Monster]

In an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Rudy, Kept KAT, instead of Rudy we traded for OG and Nembhard with all of those draft picks. That seems like the right balance around Ant similar to how some of the top teams are constructed. Nembhard, Ant, Jaden, OG, Kat starting lineup. Never going to happen now, but a similar lineup to this seems like the right direction for an Ant team. No major 2nd star there, but the right role players and defense.

trading for OG would have cost you Jaden.

Unlikely. NY gave up Barret, Quickly and a 2nd round pick for OG. In the hypothetical above, you still have all of those players and draft picks pre Rudy trade- plenty there to add someone who was clearly not of the same caliber as Rudy at that time without giving up someone like Jaden.

Probably could have done a similar collection of players as were given up for Rudy and less draft picks

What are you trading to get Nembhard?

[Q-is-here]

In an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Rudy, Kept KAT, instead of Rudy we traded for OG and Nembhard with all of those draft picks. That seems like the right balance around Ant similar to how some of the top teams are constructed. Nembhard, Ant, Jaden, OG, Kat starting lineup. Never going to happen now, but a similar lineup to this seems like the right direction for an Ant team. No major 2nd star there, but the right role players and defense.

Sabonis
Naz
Jaden
Ayo
Ant

??? Get me herb Jones and I like it better I think, or Ant steps up again as a defender. I don't like Ayo POA defense that much tho, it's ok but I want elite

Can't have a Sabonis/Naz frontcourt duo and expect to stop many teams, even if the perimeter defense is solid. That's just too much weakness at the rim to overcome. Fun team offensively though.

[AussieWolf3]

In an alternate universe where we didn't trade for Rudy, Kept KAT, instead of Rudy we traded for OG and Nembhard with all of those draft picks. That seems like the right balance around Ant similar to how some of the top teams are constructed. Nembhard, Ant, Jaden, OG, Kat starting lineup. Never going to happen now, but a similar lineup to this seems like the right direction for an Ant team. No major 2nd star there, but the right role players and defense.

Sabonis
Naz
Jaden
Ayo
Ant

??? Get me herb Jones and I like it better I think, or Ant steps up again as a defender. I don't like Ayo POA defense that much tho, it's ok but I want elite

Can't have a Sabonis/Naz frontcourt duo and expect to stop many teams, even if the perimeter defense is solid. That's just too much weakness at the rim to overcome. Fun team offensively though.

Completely agree! I want to dream that Jaden can be a full time PF, but idk how that works with Naz and apparently Jaden doesn't want to do that anyway.

I would flip Naz for a defensive PF if that were possible. Not sure who tho.

I go back and forth on Sabonis with this team. After watching Kat it's like, ok, a flawed and overpaid center can win the damn thing so maybe this works. Sabonis isn't as good as Kat, but isn't as highly paid either, the tough part with him is that, unlike Kat he doesn't have the length to bother people as a defender like Kat.

I also think he's a perfect match on offense *perfect of the none obvious bigs*

[60WinTim]

Sabonis
Naz
Jaden
Ayo
Ant

??? Get me herb Jones and I like it better I think, or Ant steps up again as a defender. I don't like Ayo POA defense that much tho, it's ok but I want elite

Can't have a Sabonis/Naz frontcourt duo and expect to stop many teams, even if the perimeter defense is solid. That's just too much weakness at the rim to overcome. Fun team offensively though.

Completely agree! I want to dream that Jaden can be a full time PF, but idk how that works with Naz and apparently Jaden doesn't want to do that anyway.

I would flip Naz for a defensive PF if that were possible. Not sure who tho.

I go back and forth on Sabonis with this team. After watching Kat it's like, ok, a flawed and overpaid center can win the damn thing so maybe this works. Sabonis isn't as good as Kat, but isn't as highly paid either, the tough part with him is that, unlike Kat he doesn't have the length to bother people as a defender like Kat.

I also think he's a perfect match on offense *perfect of the none obvious bigs*

You see, Joan has the qualities to be a defensive PF. Of course, it's a dilemma having a front court that is defense only (Joan and Rudy). Rocco could become your stretch 5, but his minutes will be very limited next season, if he gets any at all.

[rapsuperstar31]

trading for OG would have cost you Jaden.

Unlikely. NY gave up Barret, Quickly and a 2nd round pick for OG. In the hypothetical above, you still have all of those players and draft picks pre Rudy trade- plenty there to add someone who was clearly not of the same caliber as Rudy at that time without giving up someone like Jaden.

Probably could have done a similar collection of players as were given up for Rudy and less draft picks

What are you trading to get Nembhard?

Haha in this alternative universe Tim was wise wand we drafted him at 26 instead of Wendell Moore.

[Q-is-here]

Sabonis
Naz
Jaden
Ayo
Ant

??? Get me herb Jones and I like it better I think, or Ant steps up again as a defender. I don't like Ayo POA defense that much tho, it's ok but I want elite

Can't have a Sabonis/Naz frontcourt duo and expect to stop many teams, even if the perimeter defense is solid. That's just too much weakness at the rim to overcome. Fun team offensively though.

Completely agree! I want to dream that Jaden can be a full time PF, but idk how that works with Naz and apparently Jaden doesn't want to do that anyway.

I would flip Naz for a defensive PF if that were possible. Not sure who tho.

I go back and forth on Sabonis with this team. After watching Kat it's like, ok, a flawed and overpaid center can win the damn thing so maybe this works. Sabonis isn't as good as Kat, but isn't as highly paid either, the tough part with him is that, unlike Kat he doesn't have the length to bother people as a defender like Kat.

I also think he's a perfect match on offense

Yeah, if we had Sabonis, you would do something similar to the Knicks and basically bookend him with two big wings that can defend, one of which could be Jaden. I don't think the other player would have to be a "pure" PF, but more like another rangy wing like Derrick Jones Jr. Now Sabonnis would have a lot of perimeter help and Jaden can still offer some weakside rim protection to boot.

Guard - Ayo
Guard - Ant
Forward - Jaden
Forward - Derrick Jones Jr.
Center - Sabonis

And Voila! No need for a pure PG with Sabonis in the mix, which is probably what you were getting at with wanting him.