Wolves Offseason Forward Options

[Lipoli390]

Often the Wolves have seemingly waited things out to sign guys. Sometimes that might make sense. It may just be the players they wanted chose a different spot. If they plan to keep Rocco on a 2 way and Pullin is a guy I would also want to keep they only have 1 2way spot that's currently held by Freeman. There are only so many roster spots when the off-season limit is 20. I think the NBA should consider increasing that but maybe that wouldn't actually be helpful. Sometimes signing guys at or after SL does make more sense. That's what happened with McLaughlin.

I've always liked Bagely too. He is reasonably productive. Idk if he has upped his BBIQ but I'm sure he has to some extent.

Here’s how Marvin Bagley is described on line, which aligns with how I’ve always viewed him:

“Questions about Marvin Bagley III's effort, motor, and defensive engagement have been a persistent theme throughout his NBA career. While he is highly athletic and has been praised for his energy as a rebounder and transition scorer, critics have frequently questioned his defensive focus and overall impact. A closer look at these criticisms reveals several key points of discussion across his professional tenures:

Defensive Engagement & Rim Protection: Throughout his time with the Sacramento Kings and Detroit Pistons, evaluators often highlighted his defensive struggles. Critics pointed to poor defensive awareness, a lack of consistent effort off the ball, and an inability to protect the rim as expected for a player of his size.

Offensive Limitations: Scouts and analysts on platforms like Reddit have questioned his motor in half-court sets. Critics suggest his offensive contributions occasionally boiled down to just sitting in the low block or waiting for lobs, rather than playing with a high-impact motor.Front Office and

Role Issues: The discourse surrounding his effort also became entangled with drama regarding how he was utilized. During his tenure in Sacramento, his agent famously criticized the Kings for mismanagement, and there were viral social media moments where Bagley liked or posted tweets questioning his role”

He’s a tremendous physical talent, which explains his high draft slot. But this is precisely the guy you stay away from - the player who grossly underachieves his talent because of inconsistent and inadequate effort. Think Darko and Kandiman.

I agree with Q that we shouldn’t be desperate to find a high-quality starting PF but we should find a free agent PF who rebounds well and defends. If we’re thinking longer term, that makes Achiuwa and especially Sochan even more attractive FA targets. Jock would be solid but he’s more of a shorter-term answer. We don’t need top-tier or even 2nd-tier players at every position in our starting lineup. We have two elite defenders - Rudy and Jaden - and one potentially elite defender in Ant. We have two elite offensive players - Ant and Mello - with one very good and potentially elite offensive players in Jaden.

When it comes to our depth, we have very good guards and wings with skill and size coming off the bench in Ayo, Green, TSJ, possibly Evans, and eventually Donte at the end of the season. And we have both Beringer and Rocco with a full year of NBA development under their respective belts. Add Drummond for depth at the Center position. He’s still a high-level rebounder and good defender who can bang people like Wemby around when needed and back up Rudy if Beringer and Rocco aren’t quite ready. Sign Achiuwa or Sochan along with Kyle Anderson. That’s all we really need to do. This team will rise or fall on the health and performance of Ant, Ball, Jaden, Ayo and Rudy, which is no different from any other team aspiring to a championship. It comes down mainly (not entirely) to 3 or 4 core high-level guys.

Finally, a few thoughts on Beringer and Rocco. We keep discussing team needs up front as if Beringer and Rocco don’t exist this coming season. I get that they’re young and can’t necessarily be counted on. But Ball has a history of missing games so honestly he can’t be “counted on.” There are risks/rewards with every player. Ball has an injury history. That’s the risk with him. Beringer and Rocco are young and relatively inexperienced. That’s the risk associated with them. But no risk, no reward. It’s time to factor those two player more prominently into the equation. Both are 20 years old entering their second NBA season. They didn’t get many minutes in the NBA last season, but they did get some. They had lots of PT in the G-League and they spent a lot of time practicing with seasoned players on a high-level playoff team under the tutelage of top NBA coaches. Let’s get them on the court, surrounded by experienced high-level talent like Ant, Ball, Jaden, Rudy, and Ayo. Winning teams don’t shy away from putting 20-year olds on the court for substantial minutes. Here are a few examples:

Cason Wallace (OKC)
- Rookie Season (20 yrs.): 20.6 minutes/82 games
- 2nd Season (21 yrs.). 27.6 minutes/68 games

Stephon Castle (SA)
- Rookie Season (20 yrs.): 26.7 minutes/81 games
- 2nd Season (21 yrs.): 30.0 minutes/68 games

Dylan Harper (SA)
- Rookie Season (19 yrs.): 22.6 minutes/69 games

Jamal Murray (DEN)
- Rookie Season (19 yrs.): 21.5 minutes/82 games
- 2nd Season (20 yrs.): 31.7 minutes/80 games (Denver was a contender and finished with 46 wins that season)

Jared McCain (Sixers/OKC)
- Rookie Season (20 yrs.): 25.7 minutes/23 games (missed most of season w/ACL injury. Sixers not tanking
- 2nd Season (21 yrs.): 17.3 minutes/67 games (played with both Sixers and OKC that season)

Those are just some examples of competitive teams trying to get to the playoffs and win a championship playing 19, 20 and 21 year old rookies and 2nd year players major meaningful minutes. Those players helped their teams win and importantly got the chance to develop through actual NBA playing time to get even better down the road. It’s time to stop the “too young” or “too inexperienced” narrative and see what our young bigs can do and develop them over the course of the season before the playoffs. Meanwhile, signing Drummond, Kyle Anderson and one of Sochan, Achiuwa or Jock Landale would give us the depth and insurance needed to move forward with our impressive core for a championship run next season and thereafter.

Lip, I know you like Achiuwa and Sochan as PF options, but we just can't afford their lack of spacing/shooting, as they will most likely be paired with either Rudy or Joan. Haven't we learned our lesson yet about having two bigs on the floor at the same time that can't shoot??

It's really hard to find the perfect fit - a forward that can defend, rebound, AND make 3's. Jock can rebound and make 3's, but he's weak defensively. Dean Wade might have the best balance of all those skills, but I suspect he will be highly sought after.

I understand your point, Q. But I don’t see any reason to add a front court player to the roster for our rotation if the player added doesn’t enhance our size, toughness and rebounding. That’s the reason for adding size. Yes, I’d love to add a player with all those attributes and the ability to stretch the floor offensively. But the only free agent front court player who comes close, as you noted, is Dean Wade.

I haven’t mentioned Wade because I’ve assumed we have no chance of signing him as a free agent with nothing more to work with than the taxpayer MLE. But maybe Sundog is right that he’d be willing to come here at that price with the understanding that he’d be a starting PF on a championship contender. So I’d definitely make him my top free agent target if I were in TC’s shoes.

But if not Wade, we’ll have to make a choice between defense/toughness/rebounding on the one hand or floor-spacing on the other. The taxpayer MLE won’t be enough to get a PF who has the full package, unless we get lucky with Wade. We have a lot of floor spacers on our roster, but we have no tough, defensive, rebounding bigs other than Rudy who is a great defender and rebounder but not really tough. I think Beringer can be a significant contributor next season, but it will be a couple years before he develops the physical strength to avoid getting pushed around and it’s not clear yet exactly what he’ll bring to the table right away. That leads me back to Achiuwa, Sochan or Jock.

If we want the full package PF, we’ll have to make a trade that at least includes Josh Green. Maybe there’s a deal out there, but I wouldn’t want to include TSJ as a sweetener in any deal. I love his ability to score, his attack attitude and the fact that he’s a rare player on this team who has both physical strength and some toughness. Moreover, with our draft cupboards entirely bare, we need to keep promising players in their 20s. Maybe there’s a team that likes Green and would like to get out from under a long term contract, in which case, maybe we can swap Green one for one to get the full package PF we’d all like. But I don’t see it. So I think it’s time for me to get on the phone with Dean Wade and work my charm with him.

[Phenom]

Jonathan Isaac was just waived. Can he play enough? Not a great shooter but can hit an open 3.

[Lipoli390]

Jonathan Isaac was just waived. Can he play enough? Not a great shooter but can hit an open 3.

Just saw that. Jon K said he’d take a flier. He’s another guy who never came close to matching his potential. Lots of injuries have held him back. I’d say I’m Isaac-curious.

[Coolbreeze44]

I'm not adding them to any list. None of those guys played in a Conference Finals or NBA Finals rotation last year. Teams are always looking for skilled bigs. Heck, we drafted the most combined height in the NBA last year with Beringer and Zikarsky.

The point is the league is getting bigger, not smaller. You're thinking it's 5 years ago when teams were going smaller. The Wolves need some size on the roster in a big way.

No one disagrees we need to have forward depth. That's why I started this thread and listed all the names and what kind of role they might be able to play.

But the Wolves as we stand today aren't small at all. Rudy, Jaden, and Joan already have more height than what most teams field in their regular rotation (regardless of how many bigs these other teams have on their full roster - let's see who OKC has on the floor in crunch time!). And we have Rocco in the pipeline hopefully getting better and better. We literally have two of the 7 tallest players in the NBA in Rudy and Rocco. Then we have a bunch of guards and wings that are all 6'4" and taller. We aren't small at all and neither of our draft picks are small either.

That being said, yeah, we should go get another big body for depth and to use situationally with Rudy or Joan as needed. But getting a legit starting caliber PF with size will be costly and it puts Jaden - your favorite player - right back into the role of being our main POA defender and getting in early foul trouble with fewer shots coming his way.

As soon as we chose to go with Ball and not a more defensive minded point guard, I think it sealed Jaden's fate to continue as our primary POA defender. You can trust Ayo to be that player if you want to, but I'm not sold on that. I think Jaden has to be our 3, and we need someone else to be the 4 so Ayo can come off the bench in the 6th man role. Jaden will get more shots with Melo handling the ball than he did with Randle, but he is going to be limited because he has to extend so much energy on defense.

[Lipoli390]

I just read Isaac’s injury history. I wouldn’t even risk a vet minimum deal on him. He simply has an incredibly fragile lower body.

[TheFuture]

I am a intrigued by Joan's promise as anyone, but realistically it is just that. Promise. An idea of what he can be. He's still new to the game, and it would be a mistake thinking the team is set with him having to cover 14-20 mins a game right now. With the occasional start.

Posters here are talking like the team should be comfortable and confident with Rudy, Joan, Rocco, and Jaden as our bigs. I'm not. At all. Sure Jaden can slot up, but should he full-time? I don't think so.

People are talking like the entire roster should slot up, which almost all already are. Ayo is the size of a 1,2 not a 3. Ant is similar, but can hang at the 3. Clark is the size of a 1,2. TSJ can hang as a 2 or 3. Green 2 or 3. Ball 1,2,or 3 whichever is the easiest matchup defensively. We have 2 rookies that I doubt see much time.

This team has nobody else that you can be comfortable locking in for stretches at the 4 and 5. Again, Joan and Rocco are still complete question marks, and a full-time Jaden at the 4 is also a question mark. If he slots as the POA defender still, then I genuinely ask who on this team can be relied upon to defend the 4 position - providing help D, rebounding, and not be punished down low against teams who do play big?

[BeenLurkin]

I think if our PF is a weak link offensively and our Center barely knows where his hands are we are putting a lot of pressure on the guard duo and Jaden to be the best offensive trio in the league.

Conversely if we find a better than average offensive big we can play good enough team defense with Jaden and Rudy to keep us afloat there we could be a top three offense with a 4 out style.

Naz was really the perfect guy for what we have now with Ball…we should hope that the powers that be have a plan to get a trade partner to get us a Naz type guy. To do that I bet we have to give Shannon because we have nothing else of value without including a Rudy/Donte/Josh Green part in return.

At this point I’m so lost in the salary cap bullshit that I don’t know the ability we have to include multiple outgoing pieces to get a 20m$ talent level PF but if it’s possible then I’ll wait for TC to complete the puzzle and let’s see how our youth looks in summer league.

If there’s someway to get the exact right fit at PF that lets us keep Ayo/TJ/Joan/Clark/Evans as our bench rotation we should all be giving a big sigh of relief. There’s a small window to thread through to get us into the top 10 of both offense and defense that correlates with title contention. We have the correct level of individual talent to contend…but we are somehow still maddeningly unbalanced! Frustrating.

[WildWolf2813]

I am a intrigued by Joan's promise as anyone, but realistically it is just that. Promise. An idea of what he can be. He's still new to the game, and it would be a mistake thinking the team is set with him having to cover 14-20 mins a game right now. With the occasional start.

Posters here are talking like the team should be comfortable and confident with Rudy, Joan, Rocco, and Jaden as our bigs. I'm not. At all. Sure Jaden can slot up, but should he full-time? I don't think so.

People are talking like the entire roster should slot up, which almost all already are. Ayo is the size of a 1,2 not a 3. Ant is similar, but can hang at the 3. Clark is the size of a 1,2. TSJ can hang as a 2 or 3. Green 2 or 3. Ball 1,2,or 3 whichever is the easiest matchup defensively. We have 2 rookies that I doubt see much time.

This team has nobody else that you can be comfortable locking in for stretches at the 4 and 5. Again, Joan and Rocco are still complete question marks, and a full-time Jaden at the 4 is also a question mark. If he slots as the POA defender still, then I genuinely ask who on this team can be relied upon to defend the 4 position - providing help D, rebounding, and not be punished down low against teams who do play big?

You should absolutely be comfortable with Beringer as your backup C entering year 2 of a long developmental journey. If not, why is Tim Connelly employed?

What Joan cannot do is play alongside Gobert. That's why we still need at least 2 rotational bigs, with heavy importance on rebounding.

[Q-is-here]

I think if our PF is a weak link offensively and our Center barely knows where his hands are we are putting a lot of pressure on the guard duo and Jaden to be the best offensive trio in the league.

Conversely if we find a better than average offensive big we can play good enough team defense with Jaden and Rudy to keep us afloat there we could be a top three offense with a 4 out style.

Naz was really the perfect guy for what we have now with Ball…we should hope that the powers that be have a plan to get a trade partner to get us a Naz type guy. To do that I bet we have to give Shannon because we have nothing else of value without including a Rudy/Donte/Josh Green part in return.

At this point I’m so lost in the salary cap bullshit that I don’t know the ability we have to include multiple outgoing pieces to get a 20m$ talent level PF but if it’s possible then I’ll wait for TC to complete the puzzle and let’s see how our youth looks in summer league.

If there’s someway to get the exact right fit at PF that lets us keep Ayo/TJ/Joan/Clark/Evans as our bench rotation we should all be giving a big sigh of relief. There’s a small window to thread through to get us into the top 10 of both offense and defense that correlates with title contention. We have the correct level of individual talent to contend…but we are somehow still maddeningly unbalanced! Frustrating.

May be Connelly is a genius and can somehow figure out how to go get someone of Naz's caliber without giving up Rudy or Jaden, which only creates another hole in whack-a-mole fashion. I just don't see it happening by throwing in TSJ to a Josh Green/DDV deal. It's not enough.

[Q-is-here]

Here’s how Marvin Bagley is described on line, which aligns with how I’ve always viewed him:

“Questions about Marvin Bagley III's effort, motor, and defensive engagement have been a persistent theme throughout his NBA career. While he is highly athletic and has been praised for his energy as a rebounder and transition scorer, critics have frequently questioned his defensive focus and overall impact. A closer look at these criticisms reveals several key points of discussion across his professional tenures:

Defensive Engagement & Rim Protection: Throughout his time with the Sacramento Kings and Detroit Pistons, evaluators often highlighted his defensive struggles. Critics pointed to poor defensive awareness, a lack of consistent effort off the ball, and an inability to protect the rim as expected for a player of his size.

Offensive Limitations: Scouts and analysts on platforms like Reddit have questioned his motor in half-court sets. Critics suggest his offensive contributions occasionally boiled down to just sitting in the low block or waiting for lobs, rather than playing with a high-impact motor.Front Office and

Role Issues: The discourse surrounding his effort also became entangled with drama regarding how he was utilized. During his tenure in Sacramento, his agent famously criticized the Kings for mismanagement, and there were viral social media moments where Bagley liked or posted tweets questioning his role”

He’s a tremendous physical talent, which explains his high draft slot. But this is precisely the guy you stay away from - the player who grossly underachieves his talent because of inconsistent and inadequate effort. Think Darko and Kandiman.

I agree with Q that we shouldn’t be desperate to find a high-quality starting PF but we should find a free agent PF who rebounds well and defends. If we’re thinking longer term, that makes Achiuwa and especially Sochan even more attractive FA targets. Jock would be solid but he’s more of a shorter-term answer. We don’t need top-tier or even 2nd-tier players at every position in our starting lineup. We have two elite defenders - Rudy and Jaden - and one potentially elite defender in Ant. We have two elite offensive players - Ant and Mello - with one very good and potentially elite offensive players in Jaden.

When it comes to our depth, we have very good guards and wings with skill and size coming off the bench in Ayo, Green, TSJ, possibly Evans, and eventually Donte at the end of the season. And we have both Beringer and Rocco with a full year of NBA development under their respective belts. Add Drummond for depth at the Center position. He’s still a high-level rebounder and good defender who can bang people like Wemby around when needed and back up Rudy if Beringer and Rocco aren’t quite ready. Sign Achiuwa or Sochan along with Kyle Anderson. That’s all we really need to do. This team will rise or fall on the health and performance of Ant, Ball, Jaden, Ayo and Rudy, which is no different from any other team aspiring to a championship. It comes down mainly (not entirely) to 3 or 4 core high-level guys.

Finally, a few thoughts on Beringer and Rocco. We keep discussing team needs up front as if Beringer and Rocco don’t exist this coming season. I get that they’re young and can’t necessarily be counted on. But Ball has a history of missing games so honestly he can’t be “counted on.” There are risks/rewards with every player. Ball has an injury history. That’s the risk with him. Beringer and Rocco are young and relatively inexperienced. That’s the risk associated with them. But no risk, no reward. It’s time to factor those two player more prominently into the equation. Both are 20 years old entering their second NBA season. They didn’t get many minutes in the NBA last season, but they did get some. They had lots of PT in the G-League and they spent a lot of time practicing with seasoned players on a high-level playoff team under the tutelage of top NBA coaches. Let’s get them on the court, surrounded by experienced high-level talent like Ant, Ball, Jaden, Rudy, and Ayo. Winning teams don’t shy away from putting 20-year olds on the court for substantial minutes. Here are a few examples:

Cason Wallace (OKC)
- Rookie Season (20 yrs.): 20.6 minutes/82 games
- 2nd Season (21 yrs.). 27.6 minutes/68 games

Stephon Castle (SA)
- Rookie Season (20 yrs.): 26.7 minutes/81 games
- 2nd Season (21 yrs.): 30.0 minutes/68 games

Dylan Harper (SA)
- Rookie Season (19 yrs.): 22.6 minutes/69 games

Jamal Murray (DEN)
- Rookie Season (19 yrs.): 21.5 minutes/82 games
- 2nd Season (20 yrs.): 31.7 minutes/80 games (Denver was a contender and finished with 46 wins that season)

Jared McCain (Sixers/OKC)
- Rookie Season (20 yrs.): 25.7 minutes/23 games (missed most of season w/ACL injury. Sixers not tanking
- 2nd Season (21 yrs.): 17.3 minutes/67 games (played with both Sixers and OKC that season)

Those are just some examples of competitive teams trying to get to the playoffs and win a championship playing 19, 20 and 21 year old rookies and 2nd year players major meaningful minutes. Those players helped their teams win and importantly got the chance to develop through actual NBA playing time to get even better down the road. It’s time to stop the “too young” or “too inexperienced” narrative and see what our young bigs can do and develop them over the course of the season before the playoffs. Meanwhile, signing Drummond, Kyle Anderson and one of Sochan, Achiuwa or Jock Landale would give us the depth and insurance needed to move forward with our impressive core for a championship run next season and thereafter.

Lip, I know you like Achiuwa and Sochan as PF options, but we just can't afford their lack of spacing/shooting, as they will most likely be paired with either Rudy or Joan. Haven't we learned our lesson yet about having two bigs on the floor at the same time that can't shoot??

It's really hard to find the perfect fit - a forward that can defend, rebound, AND make 3's. Jock can rebound and make 3's, but he's weak defensively. Dean Wade might have the best balance of all those skills, but I suspect he will be highly sought after.

I understand your point, Q. But I don’t see any reason to add a front court player to the roster for our rotation if the player added doesn’t enhance our size, toughness and rebounding. That’s the reason for adding size. Yes, I’d love to add a player with all those attributes and the ability to stretch the floor offensively. But the only free agent front court player who comes close, as you noted, is Dean Wade.

I haven’t mentioned Wade because I’ve assumed we have no chance of signing him as a free agent with nothing more to work with than the taxpayer MLE. But maybe Sundog is right that he’d be willing to come here at that price with the understanding that he’d be a starting PF on a championship contender. So I’d definitely make him my top free agent target if I were in TC’s shoes.

But if not Wade, we’ll have to make a choice between defense/toughness/rebounding on the one hand or floor-spacing on the other. The taxpayer MLE won’t be enough to get a PF who has the full package, unless we get lucky with Wade. We have a lot of floor spacers on our roster, but we have no tough, defensive, rebounding bigs other than Rudy who is a great defender and rebounder but not really tough. I think Beringer can be a significant contributor next season, but it will be a couple years before he develops the physical strength to avoid getting pushed around and it’s not clear yet exactly what he’ll bring to the table right away. That leads me back to Achiuwa, Sochan or Jock.

If we want the full package PF, we’ll have to make a trade that at least includes Josh Green. Maybe there’s a deal out there, but I wouldn’t want to include TSJ as a sweetener in any deal. I love his ability to score, his attack attitude and the fact that he’s a rare player on this team who has both physical strength and some toughness. Moreover, with our draft cupboards entirely bare, we need to keep promising players in their 20s. Maybe there’s a team that likes Green and would like to get out from under a long term contract, in which case, maybe we can swap Green one for one to get the full package PF we’d all like. But I don’t see it. So I think it’s time for me to get on the phone with Dean Wade and work my charm with him.

Yes! Please call Dean Wade on behalf of all of us here at Midwest Volleyball! I've got all sorts of t-shirts and coffee mugs with our logo that he can hand out to family, friends, and raffle off to the Dean Wade Fan Club.