Wolves Offseason Forward Options

[rapsuperstar31]

Our projected starting PF

Jaden McDaniels = 185 pounds


The rest of the projected starting PFs in the Western Conference

Chet Holmgren = 208 pounds
Tobias Harris = 228 pounds
Aaron Gordon = 235 pounds
Draymond Green = 230 pounds
Jabari Smith = 220 pounds
Deni Avdija = 228 pounds
Rui Hachimura = 230 pounds (or Kawhi again?? = 225 pounds)
Sandro Mamukelashvili = 240 pounds
Cam Boozer = 253 pounds
JJJ = 242 pounds
PJ Washington = 230 pounds
Miles Bridges = 225 pounds
Keegan Murray = 225 pounds
Zion Williamson = 284 pounds

How many of them are actually going to post you up and make you pay for the size difference?

[Lipoli390]

13 minutes of Ayo in a partial season with the Wolves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phJAcuUtY5s

My opinion is shifting to Jaden as our starting PF, along with LaMelo, Ayo, ANT and Rudy. That's a lineup with a lot of punch on both ends of the floor!

Yeah, it will be very interesting who the 5th starter is. Starting Ayo is probably the highest percentage bet, as he's among our five best and highest paid players. Plus he's kind of someone that can fit into any lineup since he can be effective with or without a lot of touches. All the other options either need touches (Shannon, Bones) or are very limited with their touches (Green, Clark, Lyles). But....there is a ton of precedent for having one of your five best players come off the bench, so who knows??

It’s a tough question to answer with our roster. Of course, we’ll have to trust Finch. As I see it, the answer depends on what you want out of your 5th starter and what you want might vary game to game depending on matchups. Here’s how it breaks down in my mind:

1. If you want the best five, I agree with you that Ayo should be our 5th starter. Not sure who the second best player is among the alternatives - TSJ, Green or Clark.

2. If I prioritize length, it’s also Ayo. His 6’10.25 wingspan and 8’6 standing reach are both longer than any of the other alternatives (Clark 6’9/8’5.5, TSJ 6’8.75/8’4, Green 6’9/8’5).

3. If I prioritize weight/strength, TSJ would be the guy with Green as the second choice. TSJ’s combine weight was just shy of 220 lbs. Green weighed in at 215, and Clark at 200.

4. If I prioritize offensive production, Ayo would be the guy with TSJ as the second choice

5. If I prioritize defense, I lean slightly towards Clark with Green as the clear and close second choice.

[BeenLurkin]

Our projected starting PF

Jaden McDaniels = 185 pounds


The rest of the projected starting PFs in the Western Conference

Chet Holmgren = 208 pounds
Tobias Harris = 228 pounds
Aaron Gordon = 235 pounds
Draymond Green = 230 pounds
Jabari Smith = 220 pounds
Deni Avdija = 228 pounds
Rui Hachimura = 230 pounds (or Kawhi again?? = 225 pounds)
Sandro Mamukelashvili = 240 pounds
Cam Boozer = 253 pounds
JJJ = 242 pounds
PJ Washington = 230 pounds
Miles Bridges = 225 pounds
Keegan Murray = 225 pounds
Zion Williamson = 284 pounds

I am 6’3” 190 and if you think Jaden is what he is listed at nba.com then I dunno what to tell ya. He was at the draft combine maybe?

[Q-is-here]

I really really hope not. Use Ayo as the 6th man who also closes a lot of games. Play Green at the 3 if Jaden is started the season as the 4. Plus it's a no brainer to give Green some run to increase his value in case a deal materializes before the trade deadline.

I think that's a good way to go too. I really don't have a strong opinion on it; in Finch I trust, LOL.

I probably wouldn't like it if Trey Lyles started, as I feel like that's a bridge too far. I think you can get away with an offensively limited 3&D wing that can hit open 3's as a token starter (like Green or an improved Clark) versus a mediocre PF that's starting simply because he's kinda big.

I trust Finchy too, but I suspect he's on his knees every night praying for LeBron or a trade that brings in a true PF. Kyle Thiege talked today on Dane's pod about his concerns about Jaden at the 4. He said he was looking at Zion in the stands last night, and said you just can't believe how huge he looks in person. But then he said he can't imagine trying to guard him with a guy named Slim! I agree, and think we'd be doing Jaden a big disservice if we lined him up against guys 50 pounds or more bigger than him. I feel like we're not letting Jaden continue to develop at his best positional fit if we make him get banged up by PFs that are far stronger and bigger than him.

Maybe Finchie will have to roll out a starting lineup based on situation if TC isn't able to land a real PF. There are teams out there with PFs who aren't physically superior to Jaden...look at San Antonio last year (although to be fair, they fixed their size issue by getting Tobias). Let Jaden start at the 4 against them with Ayo, Green or someone else at the 3. But I don't think Finchie is going to want to sacrifice Slim to the likes of Zion, Giannis, Banchero, Gordon and Ju...he would be completely overpowered, and the chance of injury would increase. I agree that Lyles probably isn't an everyday starting PF on a contending NBA team, but a spot start against the bruisers might make sense.

IDK, somehow the concave-chested, sickly-looking Chet Holmgren is able to guard thicker/bigger guys. What about Wemby against much stronger/thicker Centers? Being long and rangy and able to move your feet goes a long ways.

That being said, I wouldn't assume that Jaden just automatically guards the PF of the opposing team. On some nights that might make sense. On others it might not.

Both Ant and Josh Green are stoutly-built individuals that can probably hold up pretty well in the post, so I wouldn't be surprised if one of those two would get the initial assignment at times against someone like Zion or Julius, with help at the rim coming from Rudy or Jaden. I mean, literally no one can stand up Zion by themselves when he has a head of steam.

I also don't see Tobias as "fixing" the Spurs' size issue. Yes, he's used to playing PF as his normal position, but he isn't exactly a big-bodied bruiser known for holding his ground and pushing people around. He was less than 6'7" with shoes on at the NBA combine. He averaged a whopping 5 rebounds per game with Detroit. But that's kinda my point...If Tobias Harris can make a good living as an NBA PF, than surely Jaden can as well.

[Monster]

Our projected starting PF

Jaden McDaniels = 185 pounds


The rest of the projected starting PFs in the Western Conference

Chet Holmgren = 208 pounds
Tobias Harris = 228 pounds
Aaron Gordon = 235 pounds
Draymond Green = 230 pounds
Jabari Smith = 220 pounds
Deni Avdija = 228 pounds
Rui Hachimura = 230 pounds (or Kawhi again?? = 225 pounds)
Sandro Mamukelashvili = 240 pounds
Cam Boozer = 253 pounds
JJJ = 242 pounds
PJ Washington = 230 pounds
Miles Bridges = 225 pounds
Keegan Murray = 225 pounds
Zion Williamson = 284 pounds

How many of them are actually going to post you up and make you pay for the size difference?

Finally someone made a list!

Some of those guys barely dribble the ball.

Honestly Zion is about the only guy that worries me and I don't really know what you are gonna do about that. If it's that big of a problem just put Beringer on him to start and see what happens. Who is their starting center?

[Monster]

To be consistent I will bring up that I kinda banged the drum last year that the Wolves didn't have many SF sized guys after Jaden. Q and I went back and forth about this and it was a good discussion. The Wolves other than Isaiah evens haven't added anyone with more length and the other guy with more length was Julian Phillips who was let go.

I still think this lack of a forward sized guy is something the roster lacks especially now that currently Jaden would be the starter at PF. However I will say that if he is on the roster Josh Green playing as a wing and SF is a legit rotation player and can definitely help a good roster. Currently the worst wing/perimeter player is I guess Isaiah evens because he is a rookie. That's pretty good. The next worst wing is either Green or if you want to say Bones is a wing because you can play him as a SG?

I'll add that since the Wolves are trying put Freeman as a SF (trying to make Q have a heart attack or a sore neck from shaking his head at Freeman playing this passion) that's interesting for a couple reasons.

1. He would give the Wolves another big forward similar to say Josh Minott or even Joe Ingles or to some extent Kyle Anderson. In theory that sounds good. I'm open to seeing what he can do but I do have skeptism about it maybe more so that Minott playing SF or maybe even Leonard Miller? The question for me is whether he can defend that spot. If he can do that let him run around and do shit I don't care if he can't dribble at all especially if he can hit 3's even at like 34 percent or something.

This also makes me think that the Wolves aren't really looking to play small. If they were Freeman would be playing PF not SF. It seems more to me like they have preferred to find those very big wings to play SF if they can. Now at some point playing Jaden at the 4 is not playing small. To me the small part is more about the players at SF and yes Jaden isn't the bulkiest guy. Randle was a bulky guy but it didn't always show up. My friend I saw at summer league said he saw Randle at the airport. He was like man that dude is big. his shoulders are just massive!

Obviously Freeman isn't the answer at any position but he could be a depth guy. It's also a little bit interesting they picked TKR who isn't exactly small but he isn't wildly big either. He has similar measurements to Julius Randle only not quite and long and less athletic. From what I saw ina. Couple college games and highlights he has no problem being physical. That would be a nice player to have around. It would be something different than the other guys on the roster. He wouldn't be backing down from Zion. Beringer is a guy that is trending towards being physical and has put on some more weight as well to dish things out. Tobe clear I don't know of TKR is an NBA player he he sticks on the roster. I have seen some really worthwhile stuff from him so I'm intrigued if he can figure things out at this level...or at this point the summer league level. He played for Purdue so it's not like he didn't play against talent in college.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Our projected starting PF

Jaden McDaniels = 185 pounds


The rest of the projected starting PFs in the Western Conference

Chet Holmgren = 208 pounds
Tobias Harris = 228 pounds
Aaron Gordon = 235 pounds
Draymond Green = 230 pounds
Jabari Smith = 220 pounds
Deni Avdija = 228 pounds
Rui Hachimura = 230 pounds (or Kawhi again?? = 225 pounds)
Sandro Mamukelashvili = 240 pounds
Cam Boozer = 253 pounds
JJJ = 242 pounds
PJ Washington = 230 pounds
Miles Bridges = 225 pounds
Keegan Murray = 225 pounds
Zion Williamson = 284 pounds

How many of them are actually going to post you up and make you pay for the size difference?

Finally someone made a list!

Some of those guys barely dribble the ball.

Honestly Zion is about the only guy that worries me and I don't really know what you are gonna do about that. If it's that big of a problem just put Beringer on him to start and see what happens. Who is their starting center?

Fair points. Let's play this argument out.

Guys who can handle the ball well at that size
Zion-obviously
Boozer-this dude will be a serious problem
Kawhi-c'mon, obviously
Miles Bridges-gives up height on Jaden, but will try to go through him
Deni-very physical and got a LOT better driving the last couple years
Tobias Harris-getting older, but great addition for the Spurs damnit
Chet-but he's the one dude on this list who probably won't just drive through Jaden

So yeah, it's not every guy on that list who is just going to drive through a thinner or smaller guy with the ball totally under control, but that is 6 dudes on the list who likely will. Chet won't be able to drive through Jaden, but we'll have to put Jaden on him because he'd punish any shorter guys we put on him by just shooting over them easily. I think whether you're going with Jaden who is giving up a lot of weight, or TJ or Green(?) who are giving up height, or Ayo or Clark who are giving up both, those guys would give us problems off the dribble. You could maybe add Gordon and/or Draymond to that list too, but just to be conservative, I left them off since Gordon is more of a finisher who can straight-line drive if needed, and Green is a beast with a handle, but not much of a finisher anymore.

The problem is, the weight advantage is not limited to just trying to drive on you with the ball.

• Rim crashing

• Getting deep seals

• Boxing out

• Just going up big for rebounds generally

• Cutting without the ball to look for the catch

• Setting screens

There are a ton of ways that just being heavier gives you an advantage in basketball. I'm not including traditional offensive post-up offense here like Tim Duncan or anything because it has kind of become a lost art anyway. But even without that, I just think weight gives you a big advantage.

And that's if you assume Jaden is guarding those guys. If you put Jaden on perimeter ballhandlers, where he's honestly best suited defensively, now you've got to go with TJ or Green or Ayo or Clark or Ant, all of whom are more stout than Jaden (and their lower center of gravity could help in cases) but now you've got another set of problems. Most of those other starting PFs are still heavier than TJ, Green, Ayo, Clark, and Ant, and they're basically all taller too. So even if their weight advantage is mitigated somewhat, now you've got to worry about those guys who can also use their height to get off shots over you more easily.

Guys who will shoot over shorter defenders
Jabari
JJJ
Kawhi (if he stays)
Tobias
Keegan Murray
PJ
Rui
Mamu
Chet
Boozer
Gordon

So I get what you guys are saying that it's not necessarily the end of the world, but I just think there are a lot of ways that not having a guy with traditional PF size to start (I'm hoping we don't have to rely on Lyles for this) could really give other teams some real advantages over us, including potentially forcing us to take Jaden off his best defensive role as a perimeter defender. And sure, maybe we could try to counter with Joan at the 4, but I just don't see that as feasible because neither he nor Rudy can space the floor so that will kill your offense.

Also, I'm using the same weights on ESPN for all players, so unless ESPN has kept only Jaden's weight from when he was drafted but increased everyone else's, then it's fair to assume that what our eyes tell us is true--they're all probably a little heavier than what they're listed at and Jaden is still just much thinner than all the other projected starting PFs in the WC except Chet.

I do still think this is going to be a problem unless we solve it by bringing in somebody else besides Lyles who is similarly big and hopefully better. For a few years now, we've been the team beating up on other teams with our size. Now that we've lost two of our three bigs in our rotation and Beringer can only really play backup C, and Lyles wasn't even in the league last year, and Jaden really is giving up a LOT of weight against other PFs and is best suited defending perimeter guys and we've got nobody else really go guard those dudes--I just think this is legitimately a problem.

[60WinTim]

All these arguments have knocked me off the "Jaden starting at PF" train. I don't think Lyles starting at PF is as bad as many are making it out to be. He and Rudy might be a damn good fit alongside the other starters who need to have the ball in their hands: LaMelo the PG, ANT the star, and Jaden, who we have all wanted to have an opportunity for his offensive game to blossom, but has been hampered by ball dominant PFs.

Assuming Finch primarily sticks with his beloved 9-man rotation, he'll have Ayo, Green, Shannon and Joan coming off the bench. Bones, Clark and Evans will ride the pine, along with whatever depth piece TC finds for the frontcourt. And their 2-way stable is intriguing as well.

[Lipoli390]

Let’s start with a reality check. Except for LeBron, there are no starting caliber PFs available in the free agency market who we’d have any chance of signing with the vet minimum we have to spend. With our draft cupboards completely depleted and the 1st apron restrictions we face, there are no realistic trade prospects for acquiring a starting PF - at least not a PF who meets the thresholds mentioned repeatedly on this board - i.e., matching the League averages for PFs in weight (233 lbs) and length (7’1.75/8’11.5) and who can also shoot the ball well enough to play next to Rudy.

So our current roster will have to work. And we do have Trey Lyles who is a true PF and no slouch. Regarding size (weight and length), it should be noted that while we’ll have a weight disadvantage at PF with Jaden starting there, we won’t have a length disadvantage at that position. If we play TSJ or Green at the SF spot, we’ll match the League average on weight with a slight disadvantage on length. Meanwhile, we’ll have a huge size advantage with Ant at the SG position. He has the muscular weight (225 lbs) of the average PF and a slightly longer wingspan than the average SG even before you factor in his post-combine growth spurt. We’ll also have a substantial length advantage (no weight disadvantage) with LaMelo at PG.

As we focus on weight and length, it’s also important to keep in mind that, at the end of the day, it’s mainly about talent. It’s the relative level of skill, smarts, speed and athleticism that combine to make some player better than others. Size helps, but it’s only one of many factors.

Yes, ideally I’d like to have a starting-caliber PF like PJ Washington with the weight and length of the average player at that position. But we’re one of many teams that doesn’t have a player with equivalent size at every position. And we’re one of the lucky teams with a significant size advantage at two positions - PG and SG. I think the Wolves front office is aligned with the majority of us who want to add a starting caliber PF with more size but they have run into a harsh reality that it’s unlikely they’ll be able to make that happen unless LeBron decides to sign here.

[AussieWolf3]

If bleeping Chet Holmgren can be a top 2 or 3 defender in the league as a 4/5 than Jaden will be fine as a 4/3.

I disagree that Jaden is best on the perimeter. He's a great low man defender who would be highly switchable. This is essentially what makes Chet so impactful.

Some side by side analysis between Jaden, Chet, and yes Victor Wembanyhama of their rim defense.

Stat: Vic/Chet/Jmac
RimPts saved/100: 1.7 / 3.1 / 1.8
RimDFG/100: 10.1 / 10.2 / 8.4
RimFG% Diff: -8.6 / -15.2 / -10.7

He's done that while playing as a wing, he has such a good feel and the requisite length to be great as low man and he completely wasted imo at the POA. Not that he isn't great as a POA defender, but 48 minutes of it is completely wasteful.

Does ESPN or any other site update hts and wts? Jaden is still listed at 6'9" which we know he isn't any more and honest to god he looks more like 6'11".

There is risk here obviously but I simply don't agree with Dane and Kyle and others who think it's crazy to start Jaden at PF and in fact I think it will make the defense better. There are simply other ways to win than simply weight, even if your opponent is able to out muscle you. To be honest we've really jumped the shark somewhere here; Jaden has spent a significant amount of a time defending the likes of Kawhi, Deni and even Zion and the league has shown that you can defend the likes of Kat, Jokic and Chet with shorter players and they won't just "shoot over them."

I want a traditionally sized PF on the roster so that you can run lineups with Jaden at the 3 and I really don't know if Lyles is that guy, so it really will be interesting to see what happens but I do believe Jaden can thrive as a starting PF.

PS- Tobias Harris is literally the same size as Julian Champenie, so this whole idea that SA went and addressed their size concerns is a bit misleading.